getting the tag out call right.

[UmpAgain]

R2, outs don't matter.  I'm the base umpire in the C position.  B1 hits a "dying quail" to short left center.  I turn and step a few steps toward the outfield as F7, F8 and F6 all sprint for the ball.  The ball drops ticks off F8's glove.  R2 was part way to 3B and as soon as the ball drops, he takes off.  F8 bobbles the ball a bit and R2 rounds 3B.  After I see the ball hit to ground, I say/signal the no-catch and then back up further into the infield watching to see where the ball is going to go.  Play ends up at 3B with R2 busting back to the bag.  Throw from F8 beats the runner, but it's not clear to me that the tag made contact with R2.  Runner dodged slightly toward foul territory on his dive.  I call the runner safe at 3B.  There was no objection from the defensive team.  I will note that I saw my partner was on the 3B line.  All of this happened fairly quickly, I tried to get more of angle, but could only get so far because I didn't know where the the throw was going.  In my post game, partner lets me know he saw a clear tag from his perspective.  (I specifically asked about the play).

So here's my question.  Other than working to get a better angle, should I?

1. Call the runner safe and wait for the DC to ask me to check with my partner (This is what I would have done had he asked),
2. Before making a call, shout to my partner "Rick, do you have a tag?" and make my call accordingly (and hope Rick was paying attention -- note from above, I did see him on the line, looking at the play), or
3. Call the runner safe (or out), call time and then go to my partner and ask him privately before I'm asked (this doesn't seem right to me).

Thank you in advance,

-Steve

 

 

[Velho]

Is "4. U3K style quick glance at PU (with as little head movement as possible) for a subtle sign of Out / Safe and call accordingly" an option?

[noumpere]

That call is  yours.  Make it.

 

I'm not sure I would even advocate getting help, even if asked.

[ArchAngel72]

What level..

If this is below HS  Make the call, call time and then get together with your partner and ask him what he had. If they are 100% sure reverse your call and move on.  I personally would rather be wrong but fix the call and get it right than not at that level.   HS and above if the DC does not ask it is what it was called and leave it at that. Unless he requests it but then you have every right to say Nope I got it.

 

my 2 cents

[Kevin_K]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

That call is  yours.  Make it.

 

I'm not sure I would even advocate getting help, even if asked.

This.

It's a judgment call. Your judgment. 

Like any judgment call, teams are free to disagree or agree as they see fit. If the HC comes out to talk to you about the call and you aren't certain of what you saw, you could call a crew conference to seek any additional information that might help you in your decision making on your call.

Yelling across the field to your partner puts them on the spot for making a call that they should not have to make. Those calls, typically a pulled foot, belong to a base umpire. If the umpire is not sure on the call, see above.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Lock down on the play. Angle over distance. Think again about what you saw. Exercise appropriate timing...and simply call what you saw. Sell it, brother! Do NOT be casual with your mechanics or voice here! These are the ones we lie in wait for...as others said, this is YOUR call.

The ONLY time I would conference on this is if I fell down or some other situation caused me to utterly miss the play. If you didn't see anything at all before the runner is now standing on the base, YOU have the option of conferencing with your partner. Call time, tell the runner to remain on the base and get with you partner where others cannot hear you. Listen to what your partner has, decide what the final call will be, lock eyes with your partner one final time and both of you should nod repeatedly...and then YOU come out of the conference and announce the call.

Remember if you are under FED and a coach leaves the dugout or coaches box to dispute umpire judgement, by rule, they are restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. If they are egregious enough, you can proceed directly to an ejection. If it's an assistant that's coming out on you, then it's also a restriction for the head coach.

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

My opinion, #1 is the ONLY acceptable answer.  I'm not fully reading your position or angle in the OP, but if you know you got caught at a bad angle/got blocked out/etc., you should never have an issue going to your partner if asked (politely and properly).

I vehemently disagree with the use of "discreet signals."  People see it and see what is happening.  If you don't see your partner's signal or don't go with it, somebody will see it.  Why sow the seeds?

[UmpAgain]

Thanks for all the replies.  To answer and explain a few things brought up, this was low-level, early-season JV.  Positioning was tough because I had to see the catch/no-catch and then it looked like the defense was going to 2B until the outfielder essentially back picked to 3B.  I did read the tag play, the players and paused before I definitely called "safe".  At the time, I was comfortable with the situation, it was only during the postgame when I found out the runner was tagged that I started wondering.

Another thought: In one of our training sessions regarding a swipe tag on the BR at first base when the field umpire is in B or C, our trainer's suggest that we do what essentially what is #2 above.  Yell to the partner "do you have a tag?" and proceed accordingly.  I've never used that technique.  I know that first base is different, but I figured I'd bring up that mechanic.  Do ya'all use that mechanic at first? 

 

-Steve

[Tborze]

10 minutes ago, UmpAgain said:

Another thought: In one of our training sessions regarding a swipe tag on the BR at first base when the field umpire is in B or C, our trainer's suggest that we do what essentially what is #2 above.  Yell to the partner "do you have a tag?" and proceed accordingly.  I've never used that technique.  I know that first base is different, but I figured I'd bring up that mechanic.  Do ya'all use that mechanic at first? 

 

-Steve

Absolutely not!

Around here, PU and BU make the same amount per game  

 

[Velho]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I vehemently disagree with the use of "discreet signals."  People see it and see what is happening.  If you don't see your partner's signal or don't go with it, somebody will see it.  Why sow the seeds?

I follow but isn't U3K the same thing?

[Jimurray]

21 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 

Remember if you are under FED and a coach leaves the dugout or coaches box to dispute umpire judgement, by rule, they are restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. 

~Dawg

What rule? 

[MadMax]

#1 is the prescribed method, with emphasis on that you don’t have to “get help” on each  and every “close” play, and certainly not just to “appease” a coach. 

#3 makes you look indecisive and ineffective; never do this. 

#4 ( @Velho’s ) introduces too many variables, and is too (much more) reliant on a working relationship between partners. If it needs to be pre-gamed, then it shouldn’t be done. With that said, if two guys who work together a lot do it, I’m not going to ding them for it, such as if two of my fellow Vultures do it. I wouldn’t / don’t do it myself, but I wouldn’t Pooh-pooh them if they did. 

And that brings me to #2… <sigh>… my windmill to tilt, my hill to die on. While I completely acknowledge and respect the perspective that @noumpere and other umpires have, and concede this … action isn’t something that should be taught, let alone encouraged. However, I endorse its “correct” use, and use it myself, especially for the resulting atmosphere it creates… as I’ll explain. 

I don’t have an official name for it. Real-time appeal? In-play assist? Prompted answer?  
A classic example is 2-man, R2, and a ground ball to an infielder with a throw that takes the F3 off the bag… at least his action implies that. You, as BU, get as close as able to 1B, at a “good” angle, and watch for all the components of the play coalesce – the throw is made, the ball’s flight, the ball enter the mitt, the arrival of the BR, and… there’s that movement by F3… and your brain is left with a logic equation: if his foot was on the bag, the ball beat BR (and yes, we have voluntary release / possession), and he’s Out; else F3’s foot was off the base, and BR would be Safe. There are no other visual cues – either way – to affect the answer. There’s one, simple, binary (this is absolutely crucial) piece missing – was his foot on the base, Yes or No? 

Well, who knows that answer? The PU does (or, should), looking down the 1BL. 

So why not ask him??? As long as you present it as a binary – yes or no – question, then where’s the problem? “Chris, was his foot on bag??” “Yup!” [equation completed in 🧠] “Out!” 
All done in-play, in the moment, in real time.  
None of this calling “Time”, none of this coach coming out to apprehensively ask (or berate) you to “go for help!”, none of this getting together all hush-hush and secretively – which, by the way, does nothing to make the coaches, of either side, more calm; because, most of them think/believe that we (umpires) are “screwing them” when we get into those discussions all huddled around, covering our mouths, and nodding. 

Transparent. 

I did something similar just recently, which was best performed in the moment. HS game, “Championship” game of an Invitational bracket. Bottom of 7, R1-R2, 0 outs, tying run at 1B. 3-2 count.
Tense. 
Pitch is swung thru, everyone hears the <<< cling! >>> of the bat, and the F2 has it (the ball) smack in his mitt, “rattle around”, and closes on it. I signal an Out mechanic, both for the catch and the secured (caught) 3rd strike. OTBC starts clamoring… “that hit the ground! That hit the ground!”, to which the OTHC in the 3BCBox implores, “Max! Maaaax! Can you check with your partner as to if that hit the ground?” 
“Sure! Robb, did that hit the ground?”

”Nope!” 
“Catch!” 
1 out, next batter. 
It’s that simple! No anxiety, no clandestine, secretive get-together to discuss “whaddiya got?”, no bated breath, no drama (beyond the situation), no theatrics. 
Done. 

I concede, you can’t do this all the time. You can’t do this in environments where protocols, and video review are present*. You can’t do this if an evaluator / Assigner is going to dice 🔪 you to ribbons over it. You can only do it if you know / trust who you’re working with, and you yourself know where your partners are going to be and what they’re responsible for on certain plays. This is not a cover for being lazy, or “checking out” of engaging best effort and best practices during a game. 
 

* - Funny, I saw Hunter Wendelstedt and Laz Diaz do exactly this sort of call on a play in Minneapolis. Other umpires were with me in attendance, and a couple of them even remarked, “Wow. Hey Max, you’ve done a call like that before, right?” 

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Jimurray...

FED 3-3, ART 1., f(6) - A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not commit any unsportsmanlike act to include, but not limited to any member of the coaching staff who is not the head coach (or designee) in 3-2-4 leaving the vicinity of the dugout or coaching box to dispute a judgement call by the umpire.

PENALTY: The umpire shall warn the offender unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case an ejection shall occur. A warning may be verbal or written. If written, the offender shall be restricted to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game. If a coach has previously received a verbal warning, the coach shall receive a written warning (10-2-3j) and be restricted to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game. If a coach has previously received a written warning, the coach shall be ejected for the subsequent offense. Any offense judge to be major in nature shall result in an immediate ejection. For violation of f(6) both the head coach and the offending coach shall receive a written warning and be restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game unless the offense is so severe the umpire may eject the offender and restrict or eject the head coach.

~Dawg
 

 

[Jimurray]

34 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@Jimurray...

FED 3-3, ART 1., f(6) - A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not commit any unsportsmanlike act to include, but not limited to any member of the coaching staff who is not the head coach (or designee) in 3-2-4 leaving the vicinity of the dugout or coaching box to dispute a judgement call by the umpire.

PENALTY: The umpire shall warn the offender unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case an ejection shall occur. A warning may be verbal or written. If written, the offender shall be restricted to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game. If a coach has previously received a verbal warning, the coach shall receive a written warning (10-2-3j) and be restricted to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game. If a coach has previously received a written warning, the coach shall be ejected for the subsequent offense. Any offense judge to be major in nature shall result in an immediate ejection. For violation of f(6) both the head coach and the offending coach shall receive a written warning and be restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game unless the offense is so severe the umpire may eject the offender and restrict or eject the head coach.

~Dawg
 

 

In your post you refer to a coach as in head coach and assistant separately. A head coach can come out of the dugout to dispute a call and be restricted or ejected immediately but not by that rule. Or a head coach can come out to question a call without being restricted or ejected.

[The Man in Blue]

@MadMax, I still don't like it, but I would suggest that it NEEDED to be done on that particular play. 

You didn't yell at your partner on your own volition -- you were prompted by a real-time verbal request by the coach.  Why it was needed on that play was because it was a difference of a strike out and no action vs. a U3K which means we now have some live ball action as a result of the call.  You couldn't call time and get together to make that ruling.  Very different than holding the bag or a straight line tag.

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, Velho said:

I follow but isn't U3K the same thing?

It is.  I'll be honest, I've never gone to a partner for that.  I'll also be honest and say that I do give a point or a fist, but it is more for my mental queueing than my partner.

Here is why I don't like discreet signals . . . USA Softball "state" tournament.  I have a good partner who I have worked with before, and he is on the plate.  In pregame, he asked me not to go out on anything ("The field is small enough and the lights are good, I can get it").

Nobody on, screaming liner between F8 and F9.  I am busting butt into my button-hook but can tell this may be an issue.  I steal a look and see F9 diving ... quick hit on the ground and into the glove.  I give a discreet point down as I am hooking in.  "CATCH!  OUT!"  I turn my button-hook into a loop back to A.  Here comes the screaming from the first base coach as he points at me: "YOU CALLED IT NO CATCH!"

"Coach, I didn't call anything, but let me go talk to him."  (Yes, this is backwards.  99.9% of the time I would have directed him to the umpire who made the call.  However, this is my mess.)

My partner vehemently states it is his call and it was a catch.  Good enough for me (though I disagree).  I even go back to the coach with the talk.  "Coach, it is his call.  He came out from behind the plate, was looking straight at it, and it was his call.  I was moving the opposite direction and took a quick peek while I was running and swiveling toward your runner.  It's not my call despite what I thought I had, and I wouldn't say I am 100%.  He is sticking with it."

"BUT YOU . . . "  I managed to keep it from becoming an ejection, but it wasn't pretty.

Good times, discreetly.

[dumbdumb]

but what happens when???(just like check swings) that photographer comes out with that picture that shows you were right all along with your original call and your partner missed the call, and not just by a little bit, but also not by a country mile.

 

 

 

[JSam21]

5 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

but what happens when???(just like check swings) that photographer comes out with that picture that shows you were right all along with your original call and your partner missed the call, and not just by a little bit, but also not by a country mile.

 

 

 

Shrug and move on with my day?

[Mister B]

On 8/3/2021 at 3:41 AM, agdz59 said:

.

 

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

Shrug and move on with my day?

Remind yourself that Angel Hernandez is making a couple grand per game. 

[Vegas_Ump]

This all could have been assuaged in the parking lot briefing with your partner.  Did he brief that you should go out on fly balls with runners on base?  If so, once you turn your back, the PU has the runners.  (Go out and stay out!)  OR, if the PU has all catch/no-catch calls in the outfield (with runners on base), then you have tag-ups (if required) and touches of all runners.  Yeah, that's pretty busy.  But if it's your call, call it!  ("I blow 'em as I sees 'em!")  I had a wise upper teach me that if you do not have enough data to call an out, call it safe.

Point is, situations like that should be briefed before you and your partner come out of the field.  And understanding that you may have to ask him for help is OK, but don't make a habit of it.

Mike

Las Vegas

[beerguy55]

On 4/16/2024 at 1:42 PM, UmpAgain said:

So here's my question.  Other than working to get a better angle, should I?

1. Call the runner safe and wait for the DC to ask me to check with my partner (This is what I would have done had he asked),
2. Before making a call, shout to my partner "Rick, do you have a tag?" and make my call accordingly (and hope Rick was paying attention -- note from above, I did see him on the line, looking at the play), or
3. Call the runner safe (or out), call time and then go to my partner and ask him privately before I'm asked (this doesn't seem right to me).

I'll give you my perspective as a coach.

2 and 3 are simply bad.  They look bad.  They make you look indecisive.  They make it look like you don't know what to do when you're out of position....or, you're out of position so often you've developed a routine for it.

Make the call you see, or don't see.   If I'm coach and I a) know you missed the call and/or b) have an inkling to why you missed the call, I will simply say to you "I think you had a bad angle, do you think you could ask your partner?"  I might even ask you if you had a tag or not (ie. is this a missed tag or did the runner beat the tag)

Let the coach raise an objection...if nobody complains your call is good...or good enough.  If it's blindingly obvious to the coach the runner was out, you'll hear from the coach and then you can decide if you want your partner's help.

[BigBlue4u]

On 4/16/2024 at 12:42 PM, UmpAgain said:

• Call the runner safe and wait for the DC to ask me to check with my partner (This is what I would have done had he asked),
• Before making a call, shout to my partner "Rick, do you have a tag?" and make my call accordingly (and hope Rick was paying attention -- note from above, I did see him on the line, looking at the play), or
• Call the runner safe (or out), call time and then go to my partner and ask him privately before I'm asked (this doesn't seem right to me).

1.  Call it the way you see it. If, because of a bad angle, you aren't sure, yes, go to your partner WHEN asked by the coach. 

2. DO NOT do this.  It's your call.  Take the responsibility for it.

3.  DO NOT do this.  It's your call.  Don't unload it on your partner!

On 4/17/2024 at 7:53 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

[The Man in Blue]