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The Man in Blue

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Everything posted by The Man in Blue

  1. That one is pretty close, the difference being which ball was used. In the MLB case the correct ball was used (out stands). In the OP the wrong ball was used. Cases show us the runner should be safe and the play should stand (in MLB). The only argument I can see to be made against that would be the umpire’s actions “encouraged” (I won’t say prevented) the catcher to not go retrieve the proper ball. I would counter with the catcher chose not to go retrieve the ball first (not the umpire’s error), then willingly accepted the wrong ball and made a “play” with the wrong ball. Post note: Quoth the Raven “Delmore, nevermore.”
  2. It’s not dented ...it was designed to look like it has attitude!
  3. It isn’t like pinball where you get to play the bonus ball, too? While those situations cover a second ball in play, I don’t think they accurately cover the play presented by the OP. In the presented play, we obviously have a correctable umpire error that led to the situation. I’m with Biscuit ... the runner likely would have obtained second base. The umpire’s error led to the play at third ... strike the play at third and put the runner back on second. I might even be OK with leaving the runner safe on third base. Since the catcher made no effort to go get the ball, you could reasonably expect the runner would have reached third base safely. Tough to say without seeing it though.
  4. On this board and on another, I have tried to post when I am offering an alternate rule set. It is very helpful to have discussions across rule sets, but we do need to be careful to point out when we are doing that. Simply posting “an answer” is not necessarily sufficient if it is the right answer but in the wrong code. I like yawetag’s idea of tagging rule sets and nominate him to implement that ... See what happens when you leave a meeting for a few minutes!
  5. I’m not going to show it to you coach, but I’m going to give you the rest of the game off too, just so you can find it.
  6. I think @noumpere just won the Internet for today ... A lesson for all of us in reading a rule, not just applying what you “know” ... I finally looked up the situation in the baseball book and it fully supports the position of @grayhawk and @Richvee in baseball. However, the softball rule does not (posted above). From 8-4-2(g): If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner including the batter-runner interferes in any way and prevents a double play anywhere, two shall be declared out (the runner who interfered and the other runner involved). If a retired runner interferes, and in the judgment of the umpire, another runner could have been put out, the umpire shall declare that runner out. If the umpire is uncertain who would have been played on, the runner closest to home shall be called out;
  7. I was binging games this weekend and finally saw this. It would have been nice if the TV announcers had explained what would happen if it was overturned. Or maybe they did and I missed it. Now that I saw it, IMO it is still one of the silliest things I have ever seen. Logically, the offensive coach wouldn’t have challenged it had it been caught ... but could the defensive coach challenge it claiming his player would have thrown the runner out? Sheer silliness. Related note — some of the rulings on the replay challenges in the LL Softball World Series were downright baffling. Apparently they use a different standard or had angles the TV cameras didn’t. I know Gil and the Close Call staff just released stats on MLB replay for this season. It would be interesting to know the stats on the replay challenges in the LLWS. How do the volunteer umpires stack up?
  8. What if it was a tribute to somebody back home? He didn’t continue to do it, so it was obviously not something for an advantage.
  9. We’ll agree to disagree on the retired runner point. My opinion (for what it is worth) is that you are pulling portions of the rule and not looking at the whole rule. On the interference point, I’m going to grant you that. This is a sticking point I’ve seen come up in several conversations on here and on other forums. It is a matter of semantics and almost seems as if we need to differentiate interference (an uncalled act) vs. Interference (capital “I”, meaning a call). You are correct in that IF there is an Interference (capital “I”) call, then the ball is immediately dead. If interference (an uncalled act) occurs, it could have been what caused the drop and run scored (since there was no call in this hypothetical).
  10. Why would you only call him out on his second, fourth, and sixth at bats?
  11. With a retired runner committing interference, there does not need to be another play to be made. SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT A runner is out when: ART. 16 . . . Any coach or member of the offensive team, other than a runner, interferes with a defensive player’s opportunity to make a play. This includes, but is not limited to: c. After being declared out or after scoring, a runner interferes with a defensive player's opportunity to make a play on another runner. A runner continuing to run and drawing a throw may be considered a form of interference. This does not apply to the batter-runner running on the dropped third strike rule. PENALTY: (Art. 16) The ball is dead and the runner closest to home plate at the time of the interference shall be declared out. Each other runner must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference. Even if you disagree with that (the language in (c) is misleading as it is NOT a full requirement when you read the entire Article), you could reasonably say that catching the fly ball was a play as catching it would have prevented R3 from scoring. The interference with F3 resulted in her not making the catch and allowing R3 to score. Let’s say the retired BR did not interfere with the catch, but instead interfered with a throw to second base in an effort to double up R2 ... R3 is out despite not having anything to do with the play. It has nothing to do with where the play was; any retired runner interference with an opportunity to make a play results in the runner closest to home being called out.
  12. The declaration (or lack of) is completely irrelevant on an infield fly. The existence of the situation is what matters. The batter is out once the ball is hit (popped up). You are correct that you need a fair ball. However you are incorrect in thinking the ball is neither fair nor foul while in flight. The language of the rule indicates the batter is out until it is a foul ball. There is no time in between and no “indeterminate” status. As you pointed out, fair/foul doesn’t change the interference ... it only changes the status of the former batter (now either a batter-runner or a retired runner) which changes the penalty.
  13. Since this is extremely unlikely in NFHS baseball, let’s go to NFHS Softball (2016) for the logic of the play ... Rule 8 Batter-Runner and Runner SECTION 3 TOUCHING BASES IN LEGAL ORDER ART. 3 . . . When a runner or batter-runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter-runner is entitled to hold the base until touching the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a succeeding runner. Since no play was made behind R3, R3 is forced to vacate third base. It is no longer a “safe haven” for R3, even if R3 is still touching it. SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT A runner is out when: ART. 3 . . . On a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, touches the ball to the base or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base. R3 is forced to advance, so the only base she can “reach” safely is the next base, not the base held at the start of the play. I have a triple play.
  14. Well ... I didn’t initially agree with this, but after digging into the NFHS rules ... Rule 2 Definitions SECTION 30 INFIELD FLY RULE Infield fly rule is, when declared by the umpire, a fair fly (not including a line drive or an attempted bunt) that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on first and second or all three bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. Any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purposes of this rule. The rule does not preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. The ball is live, the batter is out, which removes the force, but runners may advance at their own risk. The runners may tag up and advance as soon as the batted ball is touched by a fielder. If a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly. The definition indicates the batter is immediately out (remember, the declaration is not needed). Should the ball become a foul ball, the ruling is reversed and treated as a foul ball. The batter is NOT granted some mystic status between out and safe during the ball’s flight. SECTION 50 RUNNER, RETIRED RUNNER ART. 1 . . . Runner. A runner is an offensive player who is advancing to, touching or returning to a base. ART. 2 . . . Retired Runner. A retired runner is a player who has scored, or who has been put out and who is still in live-ball territory. Ergo, the batter runner is now a retired runner (to be reversed ONLY after the ball is foul IF it ends up being a foul ball). Which takes us to: SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT A runner is out when: ART. 16 . . . Any coach or member of the offensive team, other than a runner, interferes with a defensive player’s opportunity to make a play. This includes, but is not limited to: c. After being declared out or after scoring, a runner interferes with a defensive player's opportunity to make a play on another runner. A runner continuing to run and drawing a throw may be considered a form of interference. This does not apply to the batter-runner running on the dropped third strike rule. PENALTY: (Art. 16) The ball is dead and the runner closest to home plate at the time of the interference shall be declared out. Each other runner must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference. Pretty cut and dry. Personally, I was inclined to give the batter runner the same status we grant on a dropped third strike ... that is to say we grant the batter runner the natural tendency of running out the play and we put the onus on the defense to know the situation. However, since 6-16-c specifically grants that status only on dropped third strike, we cannot use it here. Ruling: The batter becomes a retired runner upon hitting the fly ball (infield fly = out). The retired runner does not have any protection, so the interference with F3 is indeed interference by a retired runner. The runner attempting to score is also out by rule. Now, you can argue that the retired runner did not interfere, and I suppose that is a judgment call on the interference. Personally, the retired runner had no right to continue running, thus had no right to be where she was at. She took a path directly between the fielder and the ball as the fielder was moving towards the ball. It is difficult to tell if the fielder makes the last second “lunge” because she misjudged it or because of the retired runner. Since the retired runner shouldn’t have been there and failed to vacate the area, I have an interference call.
  15. Unrelated ... but the last year I coached rec I gave up and did this. I just yelled “steal” and “bunt”. The play was so bad that it didn’t matter if the defense knew. It was 14u.
  16. I disagree with that interpretation ... but as I have repeatedly said, given the vagary of the rule I cannot say that interpretation is wrong. Ask yourself this: Would it be illegal for R2 to observe the outfield shifted to the right and then tell the hitter “Hit it to left field”? What if the defensive coach had shifted the outfield using a signal instead of a verbal command? By the language of the rule, I don’t believe considering a fact that is plainly observable by anybody in the stadium (is the catcher set up inside or outside) falls under “stealing signs”. If LL wants to keep the rule, simply removing the language about stealing signs and replacing it with “Alerting the batter” will fix that and then would include communicating basic observations. Now THAT is sage advice and words to live by!
  17. Also worth noting: There was an appeal at third base that the runner left early. Now, we all know that means nothing since the ball was dropped, but ... Let’s use this as a teaching moment about “The Advantageous Fourth Out.” NOTE:THIS IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED! For this scenario, we are going to change two things: assume (1) the ball had been caught and (2) R3 did leave early on this play. 1st out was already earned earlier in the inning. 2nd out was the infield fly call on the pop up but the runners were tagging and trying to advance (maybe F6 and F4 mistakenly thought it was three outs and decided to have a conversation instead of paying attention or F6 made an unsuccessful play to double up R1). Now, let’s say the third base umpire did see R2 leave the base path and rings him up for the third out. Plate umpire says the run scores at home (he was incorrect on that timing play). At this point we already have three outs, but with a run scored. The astute defense appeals at third base anyway. An equally astute third base umpire rules the runner is out for leaving early ... and the run is erased with “The Advantageous Fourth Out.”
  18. Close ... there was one out to start. IF = 2nd out R2 out of the base path = should have been the 3rd out R3 didn’t beat the 3rd out home, no run scored. I’m assuming the 3rd base umpire missed the out of the base path call as the runner stayed on third base.
  19. It takes me more than 20 seconds to unlock my phone. That’s what happens when you give smart technology to dumb people.
  20. Why is it important for MLB to step up and take care of the juvenile antics, particularly the recent penchants of Gardner and Boone? Because this behavior is seen by the kids that play the game. By not leveling some sort of additional penalties, MLB is reinforcing the notion that this behavior is acceptable. Kids will and do imitate it. Jump to about 17:30 and watch the behavior of Oklahoma’s FIRST BATTER of the game. His behavior continues throughout the whole game (and infects other players). While it isn’t Gardner bat-jacking level of misbehavior, I can guarantee it isn’t the look Little League wants. Stomping around, slamming helmets, then yelling out on the field ... wonder where he saw that?
  21. 1 Mississippi ... 2 Mississippi ... 3 Mississippi ...
  22. I’ll give you a “like” @stevis because you are getting the point ... the written rule is providing very specific terminology with no definition of what that behavior is and then trying to use it to whatever advantage/disadvantage the moment sees fit.
  23. The problem in the rule is that it states “the stealing and relaying of signs”. I may not necessarily agree with it, but I cannot disagree with the interpretation that observing where the catcher is setting up and communicating that is NOT stealing and relaying signs. Take that clause out and you now have the clean rule you want: Alerting the batter of pitch selection and/or location is unsportsmanlike behavior. If, in the judgment of the umpire this behavior is occurring, those responsible including any player(s), coach(es), and/or manager shall be ejected from the game. I mentioned it before (not above): if you want to outlaw communicating with the batter, then do that. Do not write a hastily composed rule and then try to apply it to other things.
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