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Guest Andy

Ruling on this play

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Guest Andy

R1 and R2, zero outs. BR hits a towering, lazy fly ball. It is so high that F6 fades all the way back to the warning track and settles under the ball, waiting for it to come down. F6 drops the ball and throws it to third base where F5 tags R2 while he is standing on the bag. F5 then throws the ball to F4 who tags R1 who is standing a foot away from second base. What is the ruling?

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15 minutes ago, Lou B said:

As F6 moves out into left field F7 calls him off way before he gets to the warning track, imagine that!  ;)

We're arguing about a situation that will never happen (F6 going all the way back to the warning track).  Now, it the Post had said F6 went half-way out into the outfield then we could probably have a decent discussion about a play that could (and does) happen, especially with a shift on.

 

What the OP forgot to mention is F6 is deaf. How is that relevant you ask? The sound of the bat hitting the ball 1000 feet in the air made everyone else drop in pain, so F7 couldn't call F6 off.

Seriously guys, I think we all get it. It will never be called because it's a physical impossibility for this play to happen.

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This Coronavirus, no-baseball, isolation is getting to a lot of you guys, huh?  :wacko:

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15 hours ago, Lou B said:

As F6 moves out into left field F7 calls him off way before he gets to the warning track, imagine that!  ;)

We're arguing about a situation that will never happen (F6 going all the way back to the warning track).  Now, it the Post had said F6 went half-way out into the outfield then we could probably have a decent discussion about a play that could (and does) happen, especially with a shift on.

 

At the time--and ever since--I felt that this call was a crock!  How this was considered "ordinary effort by an infielder" AT ANY LEVEL is beyond me!

JMO (with a bit of a vent.....)

Mike

Las Vegas

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18 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Um scientifically NOT true 

a falling baseball will reach terminal velocity at just a little over 100 feet of falling at around 80 ft per second  or 54.5 mph

 

image.png.a58c3ec9f7a789b86dc9189b581c6a4d.png

 

If you want the rest of the science behind it I can quote that too.

 

It's more likely almost double that - about 100 mph....baseball is reaching terminal velocity right around 1000 feet.

https://tht.fangraphs.com/the-physics-of-falling-baseballs/

Also some first hand info on how hard it really is to catch.

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/17721/wezen-ball-the-1000-foot-baseball-drop/

I've gone through the calculation you found and something there is wrong, though I can't place my finger on it.

This calculation puts it at 75 mph - http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/airfri2.html 

Anecdotally, 100 feet isn't right...you can see with your own eyes the difference in speed between a fly ball 100 feet in the air vs 200 feet in the air.  There have been some experiments too, dropping baseballs off tall buildings, clocked over 90 mph as they hit the ground.

 

This books says it's 95 mph.  https://www.amazon.com/The-Physics-Baseball-3rd-Edition/dp/0060084367 - apparently Neil deGrasse Tyson said that somewhere too.

 

I stand by my judgment as a ball player - nothing ordinary about it.  :)  

 

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You all forgot the most important variable:

Day game or night game?

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1 hour ago, Vegas_Ump said:

At the time--and ever since--I felt that this call was a crock!  How this was considered "ordinary effort by an infielder" AT ANY LEVEL is beyond me!

JMO (with a bit of a vent.....)

Mike

Las Vegas

Of course, it doesn't matter if you (or I) agree. A pro umpire made the call, and his supervisor said the call was correct. So, that's a correct call for that level.

But it's worth bearing in mind that 'ordinary effort' is different at different levels. Pro, NCAA, HS varsity, down to youth, will all be different. So the rule must be applied differently at those levels.

And we need to bear in mind every time that the point of the rule is to protect the offense, which we do by calling it an infield fly (and ruling it ordinary effort). No cheap double plays. Err on the side of calling IFF.

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17 hours ago, Lou B said:

As F6 moves out into left field F7 calls him off way before he gets to the warning track, imagine that!  ;)

We're arguing about a situation that will never happen (F6 going all the way back to the warning track).  Now, it the Post had said F6 went half-way out into the outfield then we could probably have a decent discussion about a play that could (and does) happen, especially with a shift on.

 

 

Lou I get that we are arguing about a situation that will likely never ever happen. The only way I could is actually in LL if the shortstop was playing deep on the infield like standing on the edge of the grass/dirt  the pop up goes sky high and he runs out and is the only one standing there cause the left fielder tripped as he went backwards on it.  NOW this I could imagine because in LL your SS is probably the best athlete on the team and well Outfielders can and do trip themselves ( or step in a hole as LL outfields arent the best) 

Also to note just because  a fielder F6 shifts and moves to say the right field middle outfield slot He is no longer an infielder So I would not count someone in the Outfield as and infielder if that is where they were positioned at the start of the play.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

It's more likely almost double that - about 100 mph....baseball is reaching terminal velocity right around 1000 feet.

https://tht.fangraphs.com/the-physics-of-falling-baseballs/

Also some first hand info on how hard it really is to catch.

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/17721/wezen-ball-the-1000-foot-baseball-drop/

I've gone through the calculation you found and something there is wrong, though I can't place my finger on it.

This calculation puts it at 75 mph - http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/airfri2.html 

Anecdotally, 100 feet isn't right...you can see with your own eyes the difference in speed between a fly ball 100 feet in the air vs 200 feet in the air.  There have been some experiments too, dropping baseballs off tall buildings, clocked over 90 mph as they hit the ground.

 

This books says it's 95 mph.  https://www.amazon.com/The-Physics-Baseball-3rd-Edition/dp/0060084367 - apparently Neil deGrasse Tyson said that somewhere too.

 

I stand by my judgment as a ball player - nothing ordinary about it.  :)  

 

 

Well there is a difference between a dropped ball from X feet and a hit ball that is traveling in an arc

you got your math

here is mine

 

https://www.scribd.com/doc/17052608/Terminal-Velocity-Of-a-Falling-Baseball

 

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2 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

At the time--and ever since--I felt that this call was a crock!  How this was considered "ordinary effort by an infielder" AT ANY LEVEL is beyond me!

JMO (with a bit of a vent.....)

Mike

Las Vegas

The call made in the MLB playoff game was called exactly as I was taught, as a professional umpire, to call it.  I would have called it exactly the same way if it had occurred in one of my minor league games, and I'm pretty sure close to 100% (if not 100%, outright) of MLB umpires would have called it exactly the same way.

Once an infielder turns his chest towards the infield and waives off the outfielder...he has shown ordinary effort (as that term is understood on the professional level).  This was really not a hard call on the professional level.  

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2 minutes ago, lawump said:

The call made in the MLB playoff game was called exactly as I was taught, as a professional umpire, to call it.  I would have called it exactly the same way if it had occurred in one of my minor league games, and I'm pretty sure close to 100% (if not 100%, outright) of MLB umpires would have called it exactly the same way.

Once an infielder turns his chest towards the infield and waives off the outfielder...he has shown ordinary effort (as that term is understood on the professional level).  This was really not a hard call on the professional level.  


I called one similar to this in a LL playoff game  batter hit I towering pop up 30 feet behind the 1st baseman.  F4 settled under it calling everyone else off I put my finger up and called it IFF  

The PU a younger kid never acknowledged me  So i hollered it out.   Needless to say we had a huddle after that and I was scrutinized for calling it.  I was at 2nd and I could clearly see the fielder had zero issues getting under it and did catch it with ease the 3rd base Umpire agreed with me but the 1st base umpire did not but he is one " if its in the OF its not IFF"  well we had a discussion and I said well I saw it as IFF and I called it because its to protect the Offense. If he purposely drops it he could get an easy double play.  After the game in the break down the UiC for the district agreed with my call and told the other 2 umpires they need to change the way they felt about that call as I was correct.

I stand by it I will stand by it   Just because the situation is not ordinary DOES not make the fielders effort extra ordinary.  If a fielder has to sprint to a spot but is settled under the ball thats still ordinary, If an OF would do that why couldnt the IF do that?  I  at higher levels would say if a IF is fading on a tailing ball that he originally settled under than that would be correct also just because the ball is tailing does not mean a fielder adjusting for it makes it extra ordinary. ( Now in LL no.. thats not routine maybe 12 yr olds but not the lower levels) 

Now I have seen quite a bit of blown calls  on the ole YT of MLB not calling for it. One instance was a 1st baseman purposely let the ball bounce caught it off the bounce tagged the now F1 trying to get to 2nd and stepped on 1st for a unassisted double play.  To me that was not the way it should have been called and that was a missed call.

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20 hours ago, Matt said:

You're making SH*# up, as you are wont to do.

If you're not, provide the statistical analysis.

OK - when have you ever seen a SS able to get to the warning track to catch a fly ball? It may even be 3 standard deviations.

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16 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

OK - when have you ever seen a SS able to get to the warning track to catch a fly ball? It may even be 3 standard deviations.

There's a difference between being able to do it and doing it.

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2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Lou I get that we are arguing about a situation that will likely never ever happen. The only way I could is actually in LL if the shortstop was playing deep on the infield like standing on the edge of the grass/dirt  the pop up goes sky high and he runs out and is the only one standing there cause the left fielder tripped as he went backwards on it. 

Sorry, no way a LL short stop is "camping under" a ball hit to the warning track!

Never seen it, never will. (and Yes, I said never).

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2 minutes ago, Lou B said:

Sorry, no way a LL short stop is "camping under" a ball hit to the warning track!

Never seen it, never will. (and Yes, I said never).

Again I said it will never likely happen 

However lets put some math to it

https://www.dimensions.guide/element/little-league-baseball-field

the layout is the infield is a 50 foot arc off the center of the pitchers rubber which is 46 feet from the plate the fence is 200 feet from the plate that easily puts F6 at a possible spot of 98 feet from the plate and if its a generous warning track lets say 30 feet ( yah thats big 10 yards)   that means they would have to move 70 feet while the ball is in the air to get to that warning track and get under the ball.  Lets say its not 30 feet but 15 feet so that puts them at 85 feet roughly to move while the ball is in the air.  If its a really  high hit fly ball that should be a home run but is pushed back a bit by the wind I could see it happening if its a 12 yr old who's an athlete.   Not likely as the left fielder should be hollering him off it but If he started back saw the left fielder fall and knew he had to go get it himself.   possible...  Not ever likely but possible.

 

And look guys I am not arguing the fact that this situation for the OP is not likely to happen.  BUT I am going by the rule as the OP stated it in his post

 

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I started playing LL when I was 6 and played till I was 12, then played Legion ball (back then 'LL stopped at 12).  Started umpiring at my local LL at 16.  Umpired through high school and college and also coached while in college.

Didn't do much my first 2-3 years of work but got back into umpiring and coaching after that (LL and PONY and later some Dixie and Travel Ball).  In my late 20s I got elected to my first BOD and have been active on a local Board or a District Board just about ever year since then.

I'm now 69 so, not counting the 2-3 years I wasn't involved, that means I have been involved in youth baseball for about 60 years.  As I said before, I have NEVER seen a short stop make a catch on a warning track, not even on a ball anywhere near a warning track.

Have You?

As always, I could be wrong! :)

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You all have forgotten about the exception that occurs when the batter scores before the ball is caught. I mean, if the SS can make it to the warning track and settle under it, surely, the batter can circle all the bases in that same amount of time. :sarcasm:

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15 hours ago, kylehutson said:

You all have forgotten about the exception that occurs when the batter scores before the ball is caught. I mean, if the SS can make it to the warning track and settle under it, surely, the batter can circle all the bases in that same amount of time. :sarcasm:

True, but then he would have passed R1 and R, so guess the IFF call is moot.  :HD:

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This post has me thinking VERY seriously about something.    Maybe I should sign in as Guest Troll, just to see what 3rd world 4th dimensional play I can fathom from the deepest and darkest recesses...........no, that was just a fart...................plays that I could come up with, that will NEVER happen.

 

Maybe, a 9 player triple play assist......................hmmmmmmm:sarcasm:

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The debate is centering around whether this should be IFF. The OP said the ball was dropped, so the base runners do not need to retouch their bases either way.

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23 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

The debate is centering around whether this should be IFF. The OP said the ball was dropped, so the base runners do not need to retouch their bases either way.

As stated earlier - R2 is safe standing on third base, R1 is out for being tagged off the base - those outcomes are the same in any scenario - the IFF is irrelevant as far as those are concerned...the only question is whether or not the batter is out - if this qualifies as ordinary effort to make it an IFF.  

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9 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

As stated earlier - R2 is safe standing on third base, R1 is out for being tagged off the base - those outcomes are the same in any scenario - the IFF is irrelevant as far as those are concerned...the only question is whether or not the batter is out - if this qualifies as ordinary effort to make it an IFF.  

So the play-by-play reads : Bugs Bunny flies out to Bugs Bunny.  Bugs Bunny safe at third.  Bugs Bunny out advancing to second -- Bugs Bunny gets credit for the put out and Bugs Bunny gets the assist.  Credit Bugs Bunny with 2/3 inning pitched.  Next batter:  Bugs Bunny.

 

I've seen that cartoon.

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Alright. I have to believe the OPer is sitting back cracking up. I would leave the field if anyone I was calling with yelled "infield fly".

The guy is at the warning track (which in and of itself is unbelievable). Would anyone call it an infield fly if F7 settled under the ball with ordinary effort at the warning track, as opposed to F6? The fielder making the play is irrelevant. I can't believe this is under debate. This time off has made us crazy apparently.

What if the ball drifts 15 more feet and clears the wall? What are we going to do then--the batter is already out on the infield fly. That would be mighty embarrassing to have the BR out (for an infield fly) on a wall clearing, out--of-the-park home run.

Obviously this is a joke. 

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On 5/12/2020 at 5:13 PM, Biscuit said:

IF the play happens exactly as the OP describes, i.e ordinary, yes, it's IFF. 

 

It's not anywhere near the INFIELD. He is at the warning track.

So, if we believe you are serious and calling a game with you and a batter hits a sky-high-fly-ball to the deep center warning track and the CF, with ordinary effort, settles under it you are calling an infield fly? 

Let's not forget the infield fly must be in proximity of the infield. Its not an infield/outfield fly rule. Effort is only part of the rule. 

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