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Guest Andy

Ruling on this play

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Guest Andy

R1 and R2, zero outs. BR hits a towering, lazy fly ball. It is so high that F6 fades all the way back to the warning track and settles under the ball, waiting for it to come down. F6 drops the ball and throws it to third base where F5 tags R2 while he is standing on the bag. F5 then throws the ball to F4 who tags R1 who is standing a foot away from second base. What is the ruling?

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Also, by rule, all runners advance four bases on a ball hit out of fair territory in flight, so no, you won't have two guys stuck on base, and the BR is still entitled to his award

No. The batter/runner gets 4 bases which forces everyone in. Maybe peer into the actual rule book. There is no base award on a home run for base runners. 
Otherwise a runner at third that has crossed home would actually get to score twice. Since he’s awarded four bases when the ball leaves the park. 

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3 hours ago, aaluck said:

So, given its flight of fancy, say the ball drifts another 10 feet over the fence... Now you get to explain to the kid and coach why he is OUT for hitting an out of the park home run, because of the INFIELD fly rule. Because after you have called it you can't just say my bad, didn't mean it.


No, because any ball 10 feet past any boundary could not be caught with ordinary effort regardless of where the fielder set up.

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5 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

No, because any ball 10 feet past any boundary could not be caught with ordinary effort regardless of where the fielder set up.

Yes thank you that’s exactly my point. How can you call the infield fly if it can’t be caught with ordinary effort. But you are failing to take into consideration is that the rule is for the runners not the batter. And you must call it at the earliest time possible. And once it is called you’re stuck with your call. 
 

It’s like calling a ball foul and then saying I didn’t realize it was gonna be fair. Once you call that Ball foul  the play is over

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11 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I believe there have been a few different rulings on this - my understanding is an infielder's position is determined by where they play TOP, not by their lineup card designation - an F6 playing near the warning track becomes an outfielder.  F8 playing in would become an infielder.  Only the fielder sitting behind home plate can wear the catcher's mitt (decker).  We've seen it in MLB where F3 and F4 have had to swap gloves, regardless of what the lineup card says (ie. only the first baseman can wear a trapper, and it doesn't matter which guy has the #3 position on the lineup card)....there's a judgment call to who F3 really is.


And yes, there is some judgment to the point in the field where F6 becomes on outfielder, or when F8 becomes in infielder, and you could have five infielders, and you could have two or four outfielders - I would trust that most, maybe not all, umps could make that assessment accurately.

 

 


Hmmm ... interesting conundrum ... according to OBR:

Quote

An INFIELDER is a fielder who occupies a position in the infield.


And any outfielder who is on the infield is an infielder.

 

Quote

The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.

It does not say when, other than “on the play”.  Ohhh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?... oh wait, wrong noodle-baker.  How about: we do not have a definition of infield.  We know per infield fly rule that it is not defined by some arbitrary boundary such as the grass or path between the bases.  Abbott: So where is the infield?  Costello: Where the infielders play.  Abbott: Where do infielders play?  Costello: On the infield!

Then again, I’m exhausted and I may be missing something in my search.

 

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11 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Yes thank you that’s exactly my point. How can you call the infield fly if it can’t be caught with ordinary effort. But you are failing to take into consideration is that the rule is for the runners not the batter. And you must call it at the earliest time possible. And once it is called you’re stuck with your call. 
 

It’s like calling a ball foul and then saying I didn’t realize it was gonna be fair. Once you call that Ball foul  the play is over


You can’t.  That was not the discussion.  It was a question of a deep-set infielder, not a home run ball.

Plus, you can correct an erroneous call that ends up being a home run.  Your call did not change the play of any player in a way that impacted play.  The ball was out of play.

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54 minutes ago, aaluck said:

No. The batter/runner gets 4 bases which forces everyone in. Maybe peer into the actual rule book. There is no base award on a home run for base runners. 
Otherwise a runner at third that has crossed home would actually get to score twice. Since he’s awarded four bases when the ball leaves the park. 

Please take your own advice.

5.06(b)(4)(A) Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance: (A) To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out of the playing field in flight and he touched all bases legally; or if a fair ball which, in the umpire’s judgment, would have gone out of the playing field in flight, is deflected by the act of a fielder in throwing his glove, cap, or any article of his apparel.

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10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

How about: we do not have a definition of infield. 

 

Look at 2.01.  2nd paragraph.  1st sentence

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15 hours ago, aaluck said:

So, given its flight of fancy, say the ball drifts another 10 feet over the fence... Now you get to explain to the kid and coach why he is OUT for hitting an out of the park home run, because of the INFIELD fly rule. Because after you have called it you can't just say my bad, didn't mean it.

 

Would over the fence be considered fair territory? Would it not be, out of play albeit a fair ball ?  I would cover that as IFF if fair.  same as foul lines.  

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24 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Would over the fence be considered fair territory? Would it not be, out of play albeit a fair ball ?  I would cover that as IFF if fair.  same as foul lines. 

Boy, we have stepped it up a notch now. So, out of the park home runs are now foul balls? Or, maybe just foul balls when a crazy ump has declared it an infield fly?

We all need to get out of the house and breathe some fresh air. Or, if stuck in the house break open the rule book and read it front to back.

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I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about making a travesty of the game................

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12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


You can’t.  That was not the discussion.  It was a question of a deep-set infielder, not a home run ball.

Plus, you can correct an erroneous call that ends up being a home run.  Your call did not change the play of any player in a way that impacted play.  The ball was out of play.

Maybe BOTH rules apply.  That is, the batter is out, but the batter and all runners advance 4 bases.  Score all the runs AND resume play with one more out.

 

I'd say this would make "proving the box score" a problem.,  but that would require reading the scoring rules and we've all been told to just rip those out of the book and throw them away.

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14 hours ago, Matt said:

An IFF that is nowhere near the lines, but somehow goes foul... you're changing your call on that. 

Also, by rule, all runners advance four bases on a ball hit out of fair territory in flight, so no, you won't have two guys stuck on base, and the BR is still entitled to his award. 

"Infield fly, batter is out if fair"

By rule the batter is out on an infield fly.  You do have a conflict and you must choose...but choose wisely.

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13 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


No, because any ball 10 feet past any boundary could not be caught with ordinary effort regardless of where the fielder set up.

But a ball one foot past can be (imagine Dodger Stadium LF corner, or Fenway RF corner)...and a ball that hits the fielders glove and hops over the fence can be.     If you follow the rules fundamentally and use no common sense you have both an IFF and a HR in this scenario.   Robot umpires would enter an infinite loop and the game would never end.

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Glad to see fantasy baseball is in full swing. I guess we need more games out there.

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30 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

"Infield fly, batter is out if fair"

By rule the batter is out on an infield fly.  You do have a conflict and you must choose...but choose wisely.

Who calls that on a ball to the middle of the infield?

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

Who calls that on a ball to the middle of the infield?

depends on the ump - some find it easier just to follow the script...or if you play in an area notorious for its winds...

Even if not said, everybody knows it's a condition of the rule...if it's not fair it's not an IFF, by rule...but once an ump determines that it can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, that's the only disqualifier.  

 

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4 hours ago, aaluck said:

Boy, we have stepped it up a notch now. So, out of the park home runs are now foul balls? Or, maybe just foul balls when a crazy ump has declared it an infield fly?

We all need to get out of the house and breathe some fresh air. Or, if stuck in the house break open the rule book and read it front to back.

Did you read what I said?

I said out of play I never said it was foul.

Also there is no need for personal attacks. Maybe you need the fresh air from the reading of these posts.

 

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1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Did you read what I said?

I said out of play I never said it was foul.

Also there is no need for personal attacks. Maybe you need the fresh air from the reading of these posts.

 

No offense or personal attack intended. Sorry if I misread what you intended.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

depends on the ump - some find it easier just to follow the script...or if you play in an area notorious for its winds...

Even if not said, everybody knows it's a condition of the rule...if it's not fair it's not an IFF, by rule...but once an ump determines that it can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, that's the only disqualifier.  

 

Let's bring this to a more pragmatic question--can an umpire ever revoke a call of IFF based on changing their judgement of whether it was catchable with ordinary effort?

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Let's bring this to a more pragmatic question--can an umpire ever revoke a call of IFF based on changing their judgement of whether it was catchable with ordinary effort?

As far as I know, they can...they don't have to.  Can, not must.   It raises some (perceived) game management and credibility issues, but yes, if you genuinely believe you erred, you can change it after the fact and try to correct the chaos caused by the mistake.

I've never seen it.  Not on an IFF.   I've seen when everyone thought it was NOT an IFF, and umpires say it was an IFF, and CLAIM that they had called it, or meant to call it.  I have NEVER seen an IFF called, and then reversed due to an ump changing his mind about ordinary effort.

In fact I had one game where F4, F6 and F8 all ran top speed and failed to get within ten feet of a fly ball that landed between the three of them in shallow center (ie. nobody ever got close to "camping"), and ump called it IFF (too early) and would not even entertain the idea of  reversing or talking to his partner.

The issue isn't whether or not an ump can, would or should change his judgment of ordinary effort...the issue  is there is NOTHING to compel him to do so....it is (unlike fair/foul) a true judgment call...the rules of baseball have no requirement for sound, reasonable or logical judgment...just judgment.  And that judgment is absolute.  It can not be protested.  And only the umpire who made the judgment can choose to reverse it (instant replay rules aside).   And an umpire who admits he made a mistake is just as rare as a coach who admits he made a mistake.

So, as far as the OP, if it hits F6's glove and hops over the fence, the umpire SHOULD rule it a home run, but there is nothing compelling him to alter his judgment that it's an IFF.  And, any ump who would call that an IFF I wouldn't trust to rule it a home run.

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

Let's bring this to a more pragmatic question--can an umpire ever revoke a call of IFF based on changing their judgement of whether it was catchable with ordinary effort?

I am almost always going to seek help if a coach asks for it--even if I just go to my partner and talk about the hot mom behind home plate.

However, with the IFR it would create so much chaos if you change it I probably would never change it. The purpose of the rule is to protect the runners. If the runners (and fielders for that matter) are relying on my call and acting accordingly I don't believe it would be fair to change it. But, taking it to extremes if I failed to call an IF and the ball drops on the dirt (maybe purposefully by a heads-up player) and the defense gets a double play I can see going to my partner and saying maybe we should get the BR out on an IF and put the other two guys back on base.  Again, in that instance I failed to properly protect the runners and that's on me, and my partner.

Make no mistake. I'm not saying the IFR is cut and dried. I believe there are some very tough calls when dealing with the rule AND calling it in a timely manner (preferably apex) as to give everyone notice.

The one thing I believe is being missed here is "ordinary effort". (Obviously the OP took that out of the equation in the ridiculous post, we took hook, line and sinker). For me that is not a player thing, its a level thing and can even be a league thing. I don't get to a game and evaluate each player's ability for IFR purposes. I don't call the same IFR for 12 year olds as I would for HS or even college.  If, during the teams taking infield, I see they can't catch or stop a grounder I may never call an IF during that game, unless it is a pop up hit directly at an infielder that doesn't have to move.

That's why in the OP I can't understand the position it could ever be an IF. At a professional/college/HS level--no infielder would ever attempt to field a ball at the warning track--thats NOT ordinary effort on any of those levels--in fact, you are out of position for a cut-off or covering a bag. To the other extreme, at a youth level that would be extraordinary effort, not ordinary effort.   

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1 hour ago, aaluck said:

I am almost always going to seek help if a coach asks for it--even if I just go to my partner and talk about the hot mom behind home plate.

 

Off topic. Please don't be an "appeaser"

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Off topic. Please don't be an "appeaser"

100%. Don't go to your partner just to appease a coach.

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13 hours ago, noumpere said:

Look at 2.01.  2nd paragraph.  1st sentence


I said I was exhausted ... :cheers:
(Been on constant conference calls from 8am to 4pm for the last week and a half.  Started grad school ... again.)

 

However ... infielders, more often than not, start the play outside the 90-foot square.  So ... no infielders?  

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3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Off topic. Please don't be an "appeaser"


MMmmm .... Bloomin’ Onion ... 

(Actually, I’m more of a Scotch eggs guy, but the joke wouldn’t be as good.)

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