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Guest Andy

Ruling on this play

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Guest Andy

R1 and R2, zero outs. BR hits a towering, lazy fly ball. It is so high that F6 fades all the way back to the warning track and settles under the ball, waiting for it to come down. F6 drops the ball and throws it to third base where F5 tags R2 while he is standing on the bag. F5 then throws the ball to F4 who tags R1 who is standing a foot away from second base. What is the ruling?

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Well, R2 would be safe in any scenario imaginable (he's standing on third base)...and R1 would be out in any scenario imaginable.

The only question is whether or not you think the batter is out.

Apply common sense to the spirit of the rule.

If you are incapable of applying common sense because you are a fundamentalist - do you think F6 used "ordinary" effort?   

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I've never seen a field where F6, starting in a normal position, could "settle under" a fly ball that came down on the warning track. And where was F7? He has right of way in the OF. 

I'll be happy to provide a ruling if you post a video of this play.

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LMAO   

 

Infield fly rule in effect  batter is out runners advance at their own peril.

 

Edit:  I assume this is in fair territory OP never said it was foul ground"

 

going by LL rules

 

Rule 2.00

Rule 2.00 defines the Infield Fly as, “a fair fly ball (not including a line drive or a bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second, and third bases are occupied before two are out. The pitcher, catcher, and any outfielder stationed in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.” It goes on to state that “[t]he ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of being caught or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul ball.”

 

 

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46 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

LMAO   

 

Infield fly rule in effect  batter is out runners advance at their own peril.

 

Edit:  I assume this is in fair territory OP never said it was foul ground"

 

going by LL rules

 

Rule 2.00

Rule 2.00 defines the Infield Fly as, “a fair fly ball (not including a line drive or a bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second, and third bases are occupied before two are out. The pitcher, catcher, and any outfielder stationed in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.” It goes on to state that “[t]he ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of being caught or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul ball.”

 

 

F6 on the warning track is NOT ordinary effort.

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Sorry Rich No  by the OP

Quote

It is so high that F6 fades all the way back to the warning track and settles under the ball, waiting for it to come down.

 

This to me IS ORDINARY EFFORT   he's settled under it waiting for it to come down.  

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Ordinary effort is judged by the umpire making the call !

What is ordinary effort to one may not be to another.

To me, I think this scenario is "third world"!  No way F6 goes all the way back to the warning track on a pop-up no matter how high.  Also, F6 doesn't get that deep without F7 or F8 calling him off.

That's my opinion, of course I could be wrong!  ;)

 

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20 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Sorry Rich No  by the OP

 

This to me IS ORDINARY EFFORT   he's settled under it waiting for it to come down.  

You are correct.

As we know from the playoffs a few years ago, IFR has to be called by the letter of the rule, not the spirit.

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3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Well, R2 would be safe in any scenario imaginable (he's standing on third base)...and R1 would be out in any scenario imaginable.

The only question is whether or not you think the batter is out.

Apply common sense to the spirit of the rule.

If you are incapable of applying common sense because you are a fundamentalist - do you think F6 used "ordinary" effort?   

Nope. IFR has to be called to the letter of the rule, otherwise it has no purpose.

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9 minutes ago, Matt said:

Nope. IFR has to be called to the letter of the rule, otherwise it has no purpose.

 

32 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Sorry Rich No  by the OP

 

This to me IS ORDINARY EFFORT   he's settled under it waiting for it to come down.  

"Ordinary effort" is ultimate a judgment call - and if you have no clue how the game is played, or you've never tried to catch a high fly ball, you could conceivably rule any play to be ordinary or not ordinary.

And just because someone managed to camp under a fly ball before catching it doesn't necessarily mean there was ordinary effort - the player may have had to do something remarkable to get camped under the ball...eg. sprinting across the field at a higher than average speed - sure, Usain Bolt could get camped under it...nobody else could.  That's not ordinary effort.

F6 drifting some 250 feet to the warning track is not "ordinary" - a far different scenario than drifting into shallow left field, which happens on a regular basis - almost every game features a fly ball that could be caught by F6/F4 in the shallow outfield...I've never seen a game in my entire life where F6 or F4 would have had time to catch a ball hit to the warning track (unless they were playing a shift and was actually already positioned out there in a four outfielder format)...

plus, assuming F6 started positioned in the infield, a ball that is hit high enough for this to be possible is incredibly difficult to catch...making such a catch on a ball that would have to be hit about 1000 feet in the air, even if it lands beside the pitcher's mound, would be a remarkable achievement that many pro ball players would struggle to make.  It would not be "ordinary" effort to make this catch, anywhere on the field, for any player.

Unless you are suggesting that F6 positioned in an outfield shift makes it an IFF - I believe that has already been ruled as not applicable.

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27 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

"Ordinary effort" is ultimate a judgment call - and if you have no clue how the game is played, or you've never tried to catch a high fly ball, you could conceivably rule any play to be ordinary or not ordinary.

And just because someone managed to camp under a fly ball before catching it doesn't necessarily mean there was ordinary effort - the player may have had to do something remarkable to get camped under the ball...eg. sprinting across the field at a higher than average speed - sure, Usain Bolt could get camped under it...nobody else could.  That's not ordinary effort.

F6 drifting some 250 feet to the warning track is not "ordinary" - a far different scenario than drifting into shallow left field, which happens on a regular basis - almost every game features a fly ball that could be caught by F6/F4 in the shallow outfield...I've never seen a game in my entire life where F6 or F4 would have had time to catch a ball hit to the warning track (unless they were playing a shift and was actually already positioned out there in a four outfielder format)...

plus, assuming F6 started positioned in the infield, a ball that is hit high enough for this to be possible is incredibly difficult to catch...making such a catch on a ball that would have to be hit about 1000 feet in the air, even if it lands beside the pitcher's mound, would be a remarkable achievement that many pro ball players would struggle to make.  It would not be "ordinary" effort to make this catch, anywhere on the field, for any player.

Unless you are suggesting that F6 positioned in an outfield shift makes it an IFF - I believe that has already been ruled as not applicable.

None of that is part of the OP.

If there's ordinary effort, which there was given the OP, this is an infield fly. I'm not commenting on the reality or plausibility of the situation itself, but the rule as applied to the situation as given. 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

You are correct.

As we know from the playoffs a few years ago, IFR has to be called by the letter of the rule, not the spirit.

If you think F6 going to the warning track is ordinary I have a bridge for sale.

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23 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

If you think F6 going to the warning track is ordinary I have a bridge for sale.

Guys who do this for a living have stated (in hypothetical terms) that it could be.

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

You are correct.

As we know from the playoffs a few years ago, IFR has to be called by the letter of the rule, not the spirit.

"Letter of the rule" is impossible when it includes subjective terms like "ordinary effort."

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3 minutes ago, Matt said:

Guys who do this for a living have stated (in hypothetical terms) that it could be.

No they have not.  Been there done that...on the highest of major league popups, in the neighborhood of 250-300 feet, it wouldn't be possible, let alone ordinary.  The fastest infielders, on a dead sprint, wouldn't make it....even in Fenway Park.  Hell, Usain Bolt would take at least six seconds to get from the infield to the warning track.  Even if they somehow did, it wouldn't be ordinary.   Even if you disagree, the fact that they can only speak hypothetically by definition shows it's not ordinary.

Even as described in the OP, getting to the warning track (drifting there, not sprinting), camping under the ball, and making the catch, on that kind of fly ball, which would have to be over 1000 feet high, would not be ordinary under any circumstances...it wouldn't be an ordinary effort and it wouldn't be an ordinary achievement.   Even if he does make it look easy doesn't mean it was.  It wouldn't be ordinary to track it down, and it wouldn't be ordinary to catch it.

Let me put this way - if I could suspend a baseball 500 feet above the ground, and let Mike Trout, or any other Major Leaguer, camp under it before I dropped it, it would not be an easy catch, even for the pros.   Higher the ball goes, more difficult the catch....it moves more, and it's still accelerating.

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47 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

No they have not.  Been there done that...on the highest of major league popups, in the neighborhood of 250-300 feet, it wouldn't be possible, let alone ordinary.  The fastest infielders, on a dead sprint, wouldn't make it....even in Fenway Park.  Hell, Usain Bolt would take at least six seconds to get from the infield to the warning track.  Even if they somehow did, it wouldn't be ordinary.   Even if you disagree, the fact that they can only speak hypothetically by definition shows it's not ordinary.

Even as described in the OP, getting to the warning track (drifting there, not sprinting), camping under the ball, and making the catch, on that kind of fly ball, which would have to be over 1000 feet high, would not be ordinary under any circumstances...it wouldn't be an ordinary effort and it wouldn't be an ordinary achievement.   Even if he does make it look easy doesn't mean it was.  It wouldn't be ordinary to track it down, and it wouldn't be ordinary to catch it.

Let me put this way - if I could suspend a baseball 500 feet above the ground, and let Mike Trout, or any other Major Leaguer, camp under it before I dropped it, it would not be an easy catch, even for the pros.   Higher the ball goes, more difficult the catch....it moves more, and it's still accelerating.

Um scientifically NOT true 

a falling baseball will reach terminal velocity at just a little over 100 feet of falling at around 80 ft per second  or 54.5 mph

 

image.png.a58c3ec9f7a789b86dc9189b581c6a4d.png

 

If you want the rest of the science behind it I can quote that too.

 

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47 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

No they have not. 

Yes, they have. 

The rest of your post is irrelevant. 

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52 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

"Letter of the rule" is impossible when it includes subjective terms like "ordinary effort."

No, it's not. Once the subjective part is judged, the rest of the rule is applied to the letter.

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And even the subjective part is not utterly subjective. Interpretations and supervisor instruction, especially on "famous" plays, tell officials how to apply judgment in these situations.

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4 hours ago, Matt said:

You are correct.

As we know from the playoffs a few years ago, IFR has to be called by the letter of the rule, not the spirit.

Only a 2+ standard deviation player would even have a chance.  No way in hell it's ordinary (typical player at the level) effort.

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IF the play happens exactly as the OP describes, i.e ordinary, yes, it's IFF. 

That's a big if :angel4: 

 

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17 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Only a 2+ standard deviation player would even have a chance.  No way in hell it's ordinary (typical player at the level) effort.

You're making SH*# up, as you are wont to do.

If you're not, provide the statistical analysis.

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2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

As F6 moves out into left field F7 calls him off way before he gets to the warning track, imagine that!  ;)

We're arguing about a situation that will never happen (F6 going all the way back to the warning track).  Now, it the Post had said F6 went half-way out into the outfield then we could probably have a decent discussion about a play that could (and does) happen, especially with a shift on.

 

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