ALL R.A. DICKEY BALKS in ONE THREAD

[Haid D' Salaami]

I watched this live yesterday. Then, I watched it again a dozen times until SWMBO became agitated.

I don't have a balk for buckling the knee; it looks to me like he broke his knee as part of a continuous pickoff move.

However, if you watch the free foot closely you will see that there is an ever-so-subtle stutter step. In other words: 8.05© The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base.

you cant break your knee on a move to a base....

[JHSump]

 

I watched this live yesterday. Then, I watched it again a dozen times until SWMBO became agitated.

I don't have a balk for buckling the knee; it looks to me like he broke his knee as part of a continuous pickoff move.

However, if you watch the free foot closely you will see that there is an ever-so-subtle stutter step. In other words: 8.05© The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base.

you cant break your knee on a move to a base....

 

 

I'm not sure I understand.

 

Don't you have to break your knee?  Consider a RHP with R1.  Players are taught that if the pitcher lifts his pivot foot heel, its a pick off move.  Don't you have to break your knee to lift that heel?  And, I don't understand how you can disengage, spin, or otherwise throw to 1B without breaking your knee.  I'm taking about the right knee, on a RHP, of course.

 

So, I must not be understanding what you are saying.  You are clearly a very experienced, knowledgeable umpire (more so than me).  So, what is it I am not understanding?

[UMP45]

I can't tell if he gained ground /distance to first.

[wbeene13]

Dickey used to get called all the time for the knee buckling first when he played for Texas so this is nothing new.

[conbo61]

If he popped his LEFT (front) knee and went to first, I could see the balk.  But I would think that you have to pop the right (back) knee for the jump move.  Back in my playing days, we were taught to key on the heels of a RHP.  If the left heel came up, he had to go to the plate, right heel, get your butt back.  For the right heel to come up, there almost has to be a knee bend in the right leg.

[MidAmUmp]

He popped his left (front knee).  That's what they called...nothing with his hands or anything else.  The umpire is patting his leg after calling it.  Pretty hard move to call unless you have a guy on the line.  And I agree - key on the left heel or left knee.  That's all I really look at with a RHP when I'm working 3 or 4 man.

 

Go back and watch the slow motion replay.  Watch his left foot & knee and you'll see it.

[UmpJeff]

I saw the hands move outward from the body immediately prior to the move.  BALK!

That's what I have, too.

[Jimurray]

He popped his left (front knee).  That's what they called...nothing with his hands or anything else.  The umpire is patting his leg after calling it.  Pretty hard move to call unless you have a guy on the line.  And I agree - key on the left heel or left knee.  That's all I really look at with a RHP when I'm working 3 or 4 man.

 

Go back and watch the slow motion replay.  Watch his left foot & knee and you'll see it.

 

Everitt tapped his right leg but probably was showing the outfield side for a back leg knee buckle. One of the announcers also referenced the back leg. This is from the 2010 WUM: it's a balk when "The pitcher breaks his back knee, and then throws to a base...".

I think you have to allow a front leg knee buckle unless he pops it without it being part of the continuous move. Am I wrong?

[grayhawk]

This was initially called a balk, and then reversed.  Very unconventional move.  It happens very fast, but I believe this should be a balk because Dickey's hands are clearly separated (when you freeze it on video) before the pivot foot lands on the ground.  Also, I wonder if Dickey's pivot foot clears the rubber - can't tell from the angle in the video.  Whacha think?

 

 

[Texas Manny]

Balk yesterday. Balk today. Balk tomorrow....

[th3]

but it wan't one that day! 

[ricka56]

... I believe this should be a balk because Dickey's hands are clearly separated (when you freeze it on video) before the pivot foot lands on the ground.

 

Does anyone really keep their hands together until their foot hits the ground?...other than the gratuitous pick-off throw. 

[mstaylor]

I can't open the video right now but I generally watch which starts first and/ or if it simultaneous. <br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[Bob Bainter]

Where does it say your hands must be together till your pivot foot hits the ground???

[Jimurray]

Where does it say your hands must be together till your pivot foot hits the ground???

FED and NCAA say this but it is not in OBR. That being said I think most of us allow the snap throw in those venues without looking too closely at the timing. I think somewhere in OBR or it's interps the ball can't be released until the foot hits the ground.

[Mr Umpire]

It may be in an interp but is not in the rules that I can find.  The only one which comes close is 8.05(j) but he is throwing to a base.  If there is an interp, then OK.  But, otherwise, I don't see a balk for this.  This happens a lot in snap throws to 1B by a left handed F1.  In fact, most (if not all) pickoff moves are preceded with the hands separating as the feet begin to move.  The only difference I see here is his upper body begins to twist just before the foot releases.

 

It looks to me PU was asking if F1 actually stepped with his pivot foot back and didn't just spin on his pivot foot without stepping with his free foot.  Basically, did his pivot foot gain distance to the back of the rubber or did he spin on his free foot?  If he called it for spinning on free foot, I can see that as a balk if they said he didn't step back.  But, if they said he stepped back, no balk.

[grayhawk]

A certain amount of leeway is generally given, especially to LH pitchers on snap throws, on the timing of the hands separating and the pivot foot disengaging.  Many times, it's hard to discern which is happening first.  I suppose Dickey should get the same leeway on this move, but the hands separating prior to the pivot foot moving is balked all the time in MLB.  The best rule to use would be 8.05(a) as a start/stop balk.  By separating his hands, the pitcher initiated a motion to pitch, and then stopped by trying to disengage.

[Mr Umpire]

Well, when I saw the video and stopped it at about 0:03, his foot is disengaging (in the act of lifting his pivot foot and possibly even moved it off the rubber some) as his body is still twisting with his hand in his glove.  It's hard to get that precise moment but that is what I saw doing it frame by frame.

[mstaylor]

If he actually cleared the rubber then I don't have a balk. However, he flinch balks just before he does anything. Watch his glove, he flinches, then makes his move. 

[umpire_matt]

It may be in an interp but is not in the rules that I can find.  The only one which comes close is 8.05(j) but he is throwing to a base.  If there is an interp, then OK.  But, otherwise, I don't see a balk for this.  This happens a lot in snap throws to 1B by a left handed F1.  In fact, most (if not all) pickoff moves are preceded with the hands separating as the feet begin to move.  The only difference I see here is his upper body begins to twist just before the foot releases.

 

It looks to me PU was asking if F1 actually stepped with his pivot foot back and didn't just spin on his pivot foot without stepping with his free foot.  Basically, did his pivot foot gain distance to the back of the rubber or did he spin on his free foot?  If he called it for spinning on free foot, I can see that as a balk if they said he didn't step back.  But, if they said he stepped back, no balk.

Great insight. I agree with you.

[Rich Ives]

You have to step before you throw.

 

2.00 Throw:  

 

"A THROW is the act of propelling the ball with the hand and arm to a given objective

and is to be distinguished, always, from the pitch."

 

Until  the hand/arm start forward there is no "propelling . . to a given objective" and thus no throw in progress.

 

And if the step is made before the actual throw starts then there is no balk.

[heyoh]

Can anyone explain this one?

 

What made HPU think it was a balk and what made everyone else overturn it?

 

[UmpireFever]

Because it looked funny.

[VAUmp]

His "disengagement" was suspect at best.

[Thunderheads]

http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/46937-balk-reversal/?hl=%2Bdickey+%2Bbalk#entry133159