Balk - Dropped Ball

[Thunderheads]

Hi all ...

I'm losing my mind .... (at least I think I am) but ....  A dropped ball by a pitcher is a balk (that doesn't cross the foul line) ONLY if he's touching the pitchers plate, yes?  Why do I think I remember seeing "either on the rubber or straddling" ??   All I'm finding is 6-2-4a

Help! Thanks!

[BobUmp]

Pitching position. If he's straddling and simulating pitching position, like taking signs or other deception, that's a balk in itself, don't need a dropped ball.
That's also why if it crosses the foul line it's a pitch and a ball.
Almost had my first ball call on this on turf two weeks ago in a 13U game. The pitcher went to put his hands together coming to a set, and the ball went flying out of his hand and slowly rolled to the third base line. By some miracle the R1 never took off. All were mesmorized I think! It slowly stopped inches from the line, and I balk him..

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[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, BobUmp said:

Pitching position. If he's straddling and simulating pitching position, like taking signs or other deception, that's a balk in itself, don't need a dropped ball.
That's also why if it crosses the foul line it's a pitch and a ball.
Almost had my first ball call on this on turf two weeks ago in a 13U game. The pitcher went to put his hands together coming to a set, and the ball went flying out of his hand and slowly rolled to the third base line. By some miracle the R1 never took off. All were mesmorized I think! It slowly stopped inches from the line, and I balk him..

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Bob, thanks, but that's not what the rule says .........

My specific question is:  If a pitcher is straddling the rubber, and he drops the ball, is that a balk, or does he have to be touching it?

[BobUmp]

Ok, taking a look at the NFHS Rule book for you, so I can quote directly :
6.1.1 states "the pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitchers plate." That's what I meant by pitching position in my above quote.
6.1.4 states "Each legal pitch shall be declared by the umpire as a strike, ball, fair or foul hit or a dead ball. A pitch dropped during delivery and which crosses a foul line shall be called a ball. Otherwise, it will be called no pitch. A pitch dropped during delivery with at least one runner on base would be a balk if it does not cross a foul line." Dropped during delivery indicates dropped while pitching regulations are in effect, which indicates he is in contact with the pitchers plate during the drop.
6.2.5 states" It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate, makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without having the ball."
This is NFHS, but the OBR is very similar to what I quoted here, excepting the five feet without the ball statement and some other small minutiae.

Now I am guessing in your example the pitcher may have been straddling the bag briefly while he gets himself into set position, so you feel he was not violating 6.2.5 by simulating pitching movements when not in contact with the rubber. And he dropped the ball before his foot was on the rubber. That would be nothing, according to the rules, if, in your judgment, he did not violate 6.2.5 and in your judgment he did not yet contact the pitchers plate intentionally when he dropped the ball, so per 6.1.1, the pitching regulations were not applicable yet.

I hope this helps


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[maven]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Hi all ...

I'm losing my mind .... (at least I think I am) but ....  A dropped ball by a pitcher is a balk (that doesn't cross the foul line) ONLY if he's touching the pitchers plate, yes?  Why do I think I remember seeing "either on the rubber or straddling" ??   All I'm finding is 6-2-4a

Help! Thanks!

You might be running together two different provisions.

Dropping the ball is a balk only when the pitching restrictions apply. Not merely touching the plate, but engaged.

Pitching or feinting while astride the rubber is a balk.

'Astride' appears in just one subsection of one rule (in both FED and OBR).

I'm not competent to judge whether this conflation is sufficient to warrant a diagnosis of mental illness.

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, maven said:

You might be running together two different provisions.

Dropping the ball is a balk only when the pitching restrictions apply. Not merely touching the plate, but engaged.

Pitching or feinting while astride the rubber is a balk.

'Astride' appears in just one subsection of one rule (in both FED and OBR).

I'm not competent to judge whether this conflation is sufficient to warrant a diagnosis of mental illness.

I did indeed run together 2 provisions!  Thanks Maven!

P.S.   This didn't effect the inning or game!  

[noumpere]

43 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

I did indeed run together 2 provisions!  Thanks Maven!

P.S.   This didn't effect the inning or game!  

You also might be conflating it with the OBR hidden-ball trick while on or astride.

[Mudder]

6 hours ago, maven said:

Dropping the ball is a balk only when the pitching restrictions apply. Not merely touching the plate, but engaged.

Is it possible to be touching the plate, but not be engaged? 

[maven]

31 minutes ago, Mudder said:

Is it possible to be touching the plate, but not be engaged? 

Of course. Most obviously when the ball is dead. But in general any time F1 walks over the mound and touches the rubber on the way. Any such accidental touching will not count as engagement.

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, Mudder said:

Is it possible to be touching the plate, but not be engaged? 

 

16 hours ago, maven said:

Of course. Most obviously when the ball is dead. But in general any time F1 walks over the mound and touches the rubber on the way. Any such accidental touching will not count as engagement.

I think he's asking:

1) RH pitcher stands just to the side of the rubber

2) Pitcher steps forward and puts the right foot touching the rubber and parallel to it

3) Pitcher steps with the left foot toward home, places the right hand behind his back, bends over, and looks for the sign

(Just describing a reasonably common way of  a pitcher taking the rubber.)

We all agree that if the ball is dropped before step 2, it's nothing.  If it's dropped after step 3, it's something (depending on what the ball does).  what if it's dropped between steps 2 and 3?

 

Although by FED rules the balk regulations begin when the pitcher intentionally contacts the rubber, that isn't interpreted literally -- otherwise step 3 above would be a balk.  It's usually interpreted as "the balk regulations begin when the pitcher 'gets comfortable' on the rubber."

[maven]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Although by FED rules the balk regulations begin when the pitcher intentionally contacts the rubber, that isn't interpreted literally -- otherwise step 3 above would be a balk.  It's usually interpreted as "the balk regulations begin when the pitcher 'gets comfortable' on the rubber."

I have your steps 2 & 3 as the process of intentionally contacting the rubber. That process is not complete until it is (judgment), and the restrictions don't kick in until it's done.

You know, like the process of the catch in football...