Balk Award

[chalen]

R1 and R2 (on 1B and 2B, of course). The pitcher balks with a feint to 1B, then throws the ball past 1B. R2 scores, but R1 (who dove back to 1B and was slow to advance), is tagged out while attempting to reach 2B. So we enforce the balk. Obviously R1 gets 2B. Is R2 returned to 3B?

[Stk004]

6 minutes ago, chalen said:

R1 and R2 (on 1B and 2B, of course). The pitcher balks with a feint to 1B, then throws the ball past 1B. R2 scores, but R1 (who dove back to 1B and was slow to advance), is tagged out while attempting to reach 2B. So we enforce the balk. Obviously R1 gets 2B. Is R2 returned to 3B?

Runners are allowed to advance beyond their awarded base on a wild pitch or overthrow after a balk at their own risk. So award R1 second base and allow R2 to score. 

APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.

[wolfe_man]

This will depend on your level.

In NFHS rules, it was a dead ball as soon as you call "That's a balk!" and there is only one outcome - the runner(s) is(are) awarded one base only.  What happens after you call it is irrelevant.

MLB and some other rule-sets will have "live ball" balks where you call it, but it's still live and then it's going to depend on what happens next as to what is awarded.  Throw from rubber out of play, throw from off the rubber goes out of play, pitch completed to batter who hits HR (HR would stand), etc.

 

[chalen]

49 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

This will depend on your [rule set].

Oops, I meant to specify OBR of course. Thanks.

[maven]

1 hour ago, chalen said:

R1 and R2 (on 1B and 2B, of course). The pitcher balks with a feint to 1B, then throws the ball past 1B. R2 scores, but R1 (who dove back to 1B and was slow to advance), is tagged out while attempting to reach 2B. So we enforce the balk. Obviously R1 gets 2B. Is R2 returned to 3B?

The ball is dead immediately after the feint to 1B. The wild throw never happened, nor did the advances by the runners.

Kill it and enforce the balk.

Same ruling, all codes.

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.

This is (obviously) correct as far as it goes, but it does not apply to this play. F1 did not throw wild until after the feint, and we'd kill (or should do) before the wild throw hit the ground (or, if we're really on top of it, before the ball left his hand).

[Stk004]

1 minute ago, maven said:

The ball is dead immediately after the feint to 1B. The wild throw never happened, nor did the advances by the runners.

Kill it and enforce the balk.

Same ruling, all codes.

This is (obviously) correct as far as it goes, but it does not apply to this play. F1 did not throw wild until after the feint, and we'd kill (or should do) before the wild throw hit the ground (or, if we're really on top of it, before the ball left his hand).

What if the pitcher steps and does a double clutch, enough for a feint, but then tries to save himself and throws wild? Are you still killing it? 

[maven]

55 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

What if the pitcher steps and does a double clutch, enough for a feint, but then tries to save himself and throws wild? Are you still killing it? 

Yes. Or at least, I hope that I would: the end of a feinted throw is, by rule, when the ball became dead.

[chalen]

Thanks, maven! I didn't frame this situation properly for the question I was wondering. But you answered one of my other questions.

[indianaumpire15]

On 5/15/2018 at 4:29 PM, maven said:

Yes. Or at least, I hope that I would: the end of a feinted throw is, by rule, when the ball became dead.

We’d let it play out on an immediate wild throw in situations where the balk is called for F1 not gaining ground towards 1st or when LH F1 stepped to the plate and threw to first correct?  Just want to make sure I’m understanding the difference between the OP with the feint and these sits.

[noumpere]

15 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

We’d let it play out on an immediate wild throw in situations where the balk is called for F1 not gaining ground towards 1st or when LH F1 stepped to the plate and threw to first correct?  Just want to make sure I’m understanding the difference between the OP with the feint and these sits.

Correct.

If it's a "balk-and-a-throw" leave it live (to see what happens).

If it's a "balk and then a throw" -- well, the throw never happened.

[Biscuit]

43 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Correct.

If it's a "balk-and-a-throw" leave it live (to see what happens).

If it's a "balk and then a throw" -- well, the throw never happened.

In a game last night, we had R1 and R2. Pitcher comes set, and while looking back at second, turns his shoulders considerably (without moving his feet). As I call balk, he does an inside move, and R2 takes off for third. In my situation, there’s a play at third, and the guy gets in safely, I send R1 to second on the balk. Let’s say instead of the ball being caught cleanly, it’s thrown out in centerfield, R1 makes it to second, and R2 reaches home safely. The correct call would be to nullify the run and send him back to second, as the balk happened before the throw, right?

[noumpere]

14 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

In a game last night, we had R1 and R2. Pitcher comes set, and while looking back at second, turns his shoulders considerably (without moving his feet). As I call balk, he does an inside move, and R2 takes off for third. In my situation, there’s a play at third, and the guy gets in safely, I send R1 to second on the balk. Let’s say instead of the ball being caught cleanly, it’s thrown out in centerfield, R1 makes it to second, and R2 reaches home safely. The correct call would be to nullify the run and send him back to second, as the balk happened before the throw, right?

You balked him for feinting without a step.  He then reversed "back" to (or toward) the starting position and then turned again and threw to second?

If so, a couple of things:

1) The throw never happened.  There's no "play at third."  There's no wild throw.  There's no R2 scoring.

2) Even if the balk was as part of the throw (maybe he turned his shoulders and threw without a step) -- you kill it as soon as F4 / F6 catches the ball.  You leave it live only of F1 "throws wildly" or whatever the specific rule book verbiage is.

[maven]

The rules create ambiguity with the phrase "throws wild after balking" (or whatever the exact wording is). In some of these examples, F1 balked, and then at a later time threw wild. Seems like it applies.

But noumpere is right, and the general principle at stake—and what's missing from umpiring only by "leave it live after F1 throws wild after balking"—is that we need to know when the ball becomes dead after a balk.

It's impossible to throw a dead ball wild (or any other way, or record an out, or advance on the bases, which is what noumpere is suggesting when he says that "the throw never happened").

On amateur fields using this balk rule, sometimes it's hard to hear the umpire, but we rewind everything back to where the ball became dead, enforce the balk, and play on.

[MadMax]

Spence ( @Stk004), the only thing we "leave live" for certain is a pitched-&-batted ball. If a Balk is not hit (put into play) by the batter, it is a Dead Ball. 
Rule Citation(s):
5.06(c)(3)
6.02(a) Penalty

 

... you helped me look that up at the top of the month. 

[Stk004]

16 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Spence ( @Stk004), the only thing we "leave live" for certain is a pitched-&-batted ball. If a Balk is not hit (put into play) by the batter, it is a Dead Ball. 
Rule Citation(s):
5.06(c)(3)
6.02(a) Penalty

 

... you helped me look that up at the top of the month. 

That's a bit of an oversimplification. While you did quote the rule citations I sent you earlier this month, there are still instances where the balk can be "ignored" without the pitcher delivering a pitch. 

[chalen]

14 minutes ago, MadMax said:

the only thing we "leave live" for certain is a pitched-&-batted ball.

We also "leave live" a balk wild pitch, balk wild throw to a base, balk dropped third strike, balk ball four with runners going or forced. Anything else?

[Stk004]

1 minute ago, chalen said:

We also "leave live" a balk wild pitch, balk wild throw to a base, balk dropped third strike, balk ball four with runners going or forced. Anything else?

I've never thought of this one before. 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. MadMax, the very next paragraph following your cited Penalty in 6.02 is--

OBR 6.02(a) APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.

And I think you would get quite an argument from the PBUC, MiBUM, Jaksa/Roder manual, and the Wendelstedt manual because all these resources have large sections devoted to when umpires are to call time after a balk.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.18, p. 100):

“Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still ‘acknowledged.’ That is, the pitch is nullified and the batter will resume his at bat with the count on him when the balk occurred unless—

“…The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one base.”

 Mr. chalen, you can add catcher’s interference to your list.

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, chalen said:

We also "leave live" a balk wild pitch, balk wild throw to a base, balk dropped third strike, balk ball four with runners going or forced. Anything else?

Reference, please.

[Stk004]

8 hours ago, noumpere said:

Reference, please.

Bases loaded walk, R2 steals third base on ball four, stuff like that. 

[mwest5575]

On 5/23/2018 at 12:16 AM, chalen said:

We also "leave live" a balk wild pitch, balk wild throw to a base, balk dropped third strike, balk ball four with runners going or forced. Anything else?

Batter hit by pitch when runners are forced to advance on the HP?

[basejester]

56 minutes ago, mwest5575 said:

Batter hit by pitch when runners are forced to advance on the HP?

The hit by pitch itself makes the ball dead.