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Senor Azul

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Senor Azul last won the day on August 13

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About Senor Azul

  • Birthday 07/16/1947

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  1. Mr. Catch18, it was not my intention to correct you or criticize you in any way. I was trying to show you that Mr. beerguy55 was alluding to an actual interpretation even though it seems as if everyone here (including me) thinks it is a completely wrongheaded interpretation. In fact, Carl Childress himself actually wrote in that entry that he thought it was the most irrational interpretation he has ever encountered. I knew what Mr. beerguy55 was talking about and it seemed to me that you thought he was way off base (pun intended) with his comment. You see, that interpretation has been a topic of discussion at least twice before. I tried to convey to you that I was trying to be helpful and not critical by the first words I typed—“For your reading pleasure.” Obviously, I failed at that. Please believe me—there were no intended implications that you were not rules knowledgeable.
  2. According to U-E’s brain trust the umpires in this game completely misapplied the rules. They say that a Type 2 obstruction is killed as soon as the obstructed runner is tagged out. The umpires were C.B. Bucknor behind the plate, Joe West at first, Ed Rapuano at second, and Ed Hickox at third. Because this was a Type 2 obstruction with the White Sox shortstop obstructing R1 Angel Pagan while the ball was in the outfield, the play was properly allowed to continue. But here is where they went horribly wrong. The obstructed runner R1 was then tagged out returning to second base so our resident experts say the play should have been killed at that point—the second tagout between home and third base should never have happened—right? But that is not how it was ruled. I wonder why? Since the game in question happened in June 2007 perhaps the rule interpretation has changed since then. If there was a change in the way this rule is applied then it is also a mistake on Gil Imber’s part to not mention that in his analysis. I can understand and accept that the White Sox broadcast team got this all wrong but four MLB umpires and two managers to get it wrong is totally unacceptable.
  3. Mr. Jimurray, I am very disappointed that you chose to use our grumpy veterans’ main debate tactic of casting aspersions on the source/man (whichever expert or text is cited). You have already tried to disparage George Demetriou and his publisher Referee Enterprises so I am going to cite two more acknowledged experts for you to find fault with. In the Introduction to the 2019-2020 College Baseball Rules Study Guide we are told the following (emphasis added)— “Many people have contributed greatly over the years to the author’s understanding of the rules, and hence to the writing of this book. Very special thanks go to Larry Gallagher, Crystal, Minn., and Jim Paronto, the NCAA secretary-rules editor, who provided invaluable assistance by reviewing the manuscript and offering helpful comments…” Jim Paronto served as the Secretary-Rules Editor to the NCAA Baseball Rules Committee, from 2003 –September 2015. I must admit I did not know who Larry Gallagher is but after some research let’s just say he is eminently qualified after 59 years as an umpire to review a rules interpretation manual. But I am sure they have been wrong before since they are human after all.
  4. For your reading pleasure, Mr. Catch18. All of the following can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15) (this is the very first entry in the 2016 edition)… Here’s the official interpretation for FED: Hopkins: If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out. Play 2-3: R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling: In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation 4-3… OBR Official Interpretation 4-3: Wendelstedt: Play 2-3 does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one. In addition, the 2019-2020 College Baseball Rules Study Guide by George Demetriou states the following… “Also, if the defense gains a third out during play and the batter-runner has not reached first at the time of the out, a fourth out appeal can negate all runs scored on the play.” Play 4-89 With runners on second and third and two out, B1 singles to right, but pulls his groin and cannot advance. R3 scores, but R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. Ruling: A fourth out appeal on B1 will cancel the run.
  5. Chris, you have received three very good answers to your question and now I would like to tell you how the scorekeepers count this in the book. The batter-runner in your scenario is considered to be left on base (LOB) by rule… 2021 OBR rule 9.02 The official score report prepared by the Official Scorer shall be in a form prescribed by the league and shall include… (g) Number of runners left on base by each team. This total shall include all runners who get on base by any means and who do not score and are not put out. The Official Scorer shall include in this total a batter-runner whose batted ball results in another runner being retired for the third out.
  6. Senor Azul

    Home Run

    Ordinarily on an out-of-the-park home run the runner(s) would be allowed to score even if the batter stopped at first. So the batter would receive credit for an RBI single. But circumstances can change the scoring of the play. For example, in the 1999 National League Championship Series (NLCS), Robin Ventura hit an out-of-the-park walkoff grand slam home run but received credit for only a single and one RBI. He was mobbed between first and second base and never proceeded any further with only the runner from third base actually crossing the plate before the celebration prevented the others to run the bases. According to Baseball-Reference.com, there have been at least two other instances of "grand slam singles." Both occurred when a batter hit a grand slam but subsequently passed the runner ahead of him on the base paths, which according to the rules of Major League Baseball causes the runner who passes his teammate to be called out. This happened on July 9, 1970, when Dalton Jones of the Detroit Tigers passed teammate Don Wert in a game against the Boston Red Sox, leaving him with a 3-RBI single. It also occurred on July 4, 1976, when Tim He-who-shall-not-be-named of the Philadelphia Phillies passed teammate Garry Maddox during a 10–5 win in the first game of a doubleheader against the Pittsburgh Pirates, leaving him with a 3-RBI single. In both cases, the other three runs still counted because only the player who passes his teammate is called out. The three baserunners are able to score. Both of these hits took place with fewer than two outs.
  7. From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual and then the actual rule (p. 146): A slip (as opposed to a pitch or throw) is a released baseball, intended to be a pitch or throw, but that lacks both aim and momentum. Any intended pitch that slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses (or, if it is touched, would have crossed) a foul line is a ball. An intended pitch that slips and does not cross a foul line is a balk if there is a runner, and no pitch if there is not a runner. (6.02b Comment) An intended pickoff throw (in-contact) to first or third base that slips is a balk if it does not reach the foul line or a fielder within reach of a tag attempt at the base. However, it is not a balk if a pitcher drops the ball or allows it to slip after a step to second base, which does not require a throw. 2021 OBR Rule 6.02(b) Comment: A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.
  8. Just for giggles here’s the Federation softball rule that has very similar language in its rule 8-6-4 about a following runner passing a preceding obstructed runner and their case play illustrating how that rule is applied in a game situation (and how I think it should be and probably is handled in baseball)-- ART. 4 . . . The runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scoring prior to the out for passing a preceding runner would count. A runner(s) passing a preceding obstructed runner is not out. (8-4-3b PENALTY c) 2019 NFHS Softball Casebook 8.6.4 SITUATION E: With R2 on second and R1 on first, B3 hits a ball safely to the outfield fence. After R2 takes off from second, she is obstructed by F6 and knocked down and may be injured. The umpire signals obstruction on F6. Both R1 and B3 pass R2 (who is still on the ground) and subsequently score. F8 finally throws the ball to F6 who tags R2 between second and third base. RULING: There is no infraction assessed for passing an obstructed runner. Both R1 and B3 score on the play. R2 is also awarded home and scores, as this is the base she would have achieved had there been no obstruction.
  9. Mr. Jimurray, you may have noticed that the current NCAA baseball obstruction rule was nearly completely rewritten. The reason listed is clarification. Since the college study guide I was quoting from is the 2019-2020 edition I had to check the old NCAA rule books before telling you what your friend George wrote about Type 2 obstruction. As far as I can tell the NCAA did not actually change anything in the rule—they just rewrote it for clarification sake. So here are some quotes from the 2019-2020 College Baseball Study Guide. “If a play is subsequently made on the obstructed runner (after umpire allows play to continue) and such play results in the runner being tagged out before reaching the base he would have been awarded, the umpire shall not call time until all other playing action has ceased. He will then make the obstruction award.” “However, the ultimate decision in awarding bases shall not be made until all play has ceased…” “Following runners are allowed to retain whatever base they attain before playing action ceases. If a following runner is thrown out in action subsequent to the play on the obstructed runner, the out stands.”
  10. Mr. Jimurray, of course the Note you refer to is in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual. You know as well as I do that the MiLBUM and the MLBUM use essentially the same text for most of its entries. I checked the 2007 and the 2015 MLBUM and the text has remained nearly identical for at least the past 14 years. It now comes down to how you interpret Note 1. The very first sentence of Note 1 refers to a runner (“if a runner is obstructed”). I think it is obvious that it is talking about when a single runner is obstructed and then later thrown out. Of course time will be called then because nothing else can possibly happen. If one continues to read Note 2 he will see the following sentence—“However, the ultimate decision in placing the runners shall not be made until all play has ceased and shall be based on the principle that the obstructed runner will be entitled to the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred.” That makes three separate references in that section on Type 2 obstruction where we are told that the umpire is to allow play to continue until all runners have stopped. In addition to the already posted OBR and FED rulings, I can provide the NCAA ruling as well. In his 2020 College Baseball Study Guide, author George Demetriou states on page 113 that “the umpire shall allow play to continue until all action has ceased and then call time…”
  11. Now, Mr. agdz59, I can get to your tangential question. The answer can be found in FED rule 8-4-2g and its following subsection 1. As you describe it the fielder muffed the ball about 10 feet from third base and did not gain control until he was essentially even with the bag. So he had to move and now it is the runner who should get the protection from the fielder. I think the rule of thumb is a step and reach for the fielder to maintain the protection of being in the act of fielding. Here’s what Carl Childress says in his 2016 BRD (section 345, p. 227) and then the relevant rule: “When a fielder muffs a batted ball and he must move to re-field it, if contact occurs in the base path, the umpire will protect the runner unless the official declares deliberate interference.” 2019 NFHS rule 8-4 ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he: g. intentionally interferes with a throw or a thrown ball; or he hinders a fielder on his initial attempt to field a batted ball. A fielder is not protected, except from intentional contact if he misplays the ball and has to move from his original location;
  12. Mr. HokieUmp, I am not sure why you and Mr. Jimurray are arguing about an OBR ruling in the High School forum in a thread that clearly states its question concerns FED rules. However, let me clarify the answer to your question. It is not that the obstructed runner is out or safe on the call that determines when the umpire calls time. The umpire is to call time at the end of all possible play, i.e., when all runners have stopped. Here’s what the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual says (pp. 110-111) about calling time after a type 2 obstruction— …The ball is not dead, however, and the umpire shall allow play to continue until all play has ceased and no further action is possible. At that moment, he shall call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, that in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction. And…"This decision is made on the principle that the umpire, in making awards on this type of obstruction, shall allow play to continue until no further action is possible and then shall make awards"…
  13. Good golly, Mr. SH0102, you and Mr. maven sure have created a dilemma for me. Who should I believe?--you two or Carl Childress who said in his 2016 BRD (section 370, p. 246) that under FED rules, “The ball becomes dead (on obstruction) only after runners have gone as far as possible which allows the defense to record outs or commit overthrows.” That’s how he interprets the case play 8.3.2D that I posted earlier that actually tells us that the ball remains live as long as there are runners moving. After a second of deliberation I think I will go with the case play and Mr. Childress. And a question for you, Mr. maven. Some time in the recent past we had a thread that asked if runners could score out of order—I can’t find it at the moment. As I recall we established that the FED rule about runners passing, rule 8-4-2m, states the following runner is out when he passes an unobstructed preceding runner. So why couldn’t the B/R in the OP pass the obstructed R1 and score?
  14. Under Federation rules, obstruction is always a delayed dead ball. That means the ball becomes dead only after all runners have gone as far as possible so that the defense can record outs or commit errors. See case book plays 8.3.2A and D. · From the FED definition (rule 2-22-1): When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action… · Obstruction appears in the delayed dead ball table in rule 5 as item number 4 with no conditions or qualifiers… · FED rule 5-1-2b—it is a delayed dead ball when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a batter or runner… · FED rule 5-1-3—The ball becomes dead when time is taken to make an award when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a runner… 2019 FED 8.3.2 SITUATION D: With one out, R2 and R1. B4 hits ground ball directly to F1 who throws to F5 for the force on R2 at third. F5 then throws to F3 in time to put out B4. F6 holds R2, preventing him from advancing to third. RULING: The umpire will call obstruction when it occurs, and then call time after runners have advanced as far as possible, which in this situation would probably be second for R1. R2 will then be awarded third. Because of the obstruction of F6, the out at first stands. B4’s out stands. B4 was not affected by the obstruction. B5 will come to bat with two outs and R2 is on third and R1 is on second base.
  15. According to the 2016 BRD, in its section on malicious contact (section 348, p. 232) the MLB issued the following interpretation in February 2014— Official Interpretation: Torre: The umpire has the right to eject (a player) from the game if it’s (the contact) blatant, and he’d be automatically out.”
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