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Senor Azul

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Senor Azul last won the day on August 5

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About Senor Azul

  • Birthday 07/16/1947

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  1. Senor Azul

    Infield fly rule

    From the 2016 BRD (section 278, p. 179): FED: If a pop-up in the infield is not an infield fly by definition—because, for instance, first is not occupied—but the umpires erroneously declare out the batter, it is not an infield fly and any action that occurs will stand. Both teams have the responsibility for knowing whether conditions exist for an infield fly. 2019 NFHS Case Book Play 10.2.3 Situation F: With R3 and no outs, B2 hits a high fly in the infield above the second baseman’s head. The base umpire erroneously calls “Infield fly. The batter is out.” F4 subsequently drops the ball. R3 scores from third and B2 ends up on second base. Does the play stand or is B2 out but the run allowed to score? Ruling: The play would stand. Both teams have the responsibility to know when conditions exist for an infield fly. The batter-runner should attempt to reach base safely and then inform the umpire that his call was in error. (7-4-1f) OBR Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: If an umpire calls an infield fly when the requirements of the runners’ positions, or the number of outs, are not met, the play shall proceed as if no infield fly were called…
  2. I originally posted the following in June 2019—it’s a quote from the Jaksa/Roder manual (2017 edition, p. 29) with their definition of tag. A tag occurs when the ball is live and a fielder has the ball in his hand or glove (or both) and…a runner is touched by any part of the glove/ball, hand/ball, or glove/hand/ball combination (excepting that if dangling laces alone touch the base or runner, it is not a tag).
  3. Mr. stevis, I agree with your conclusion but could you tell us please where that “passing reference” to verbal interference can be found in the LL RIM. I think the following rule could conceivably be used to arrive at the same conclusion and there is something in the regulation XIV—Field Decorum that might be used. 2019 LL rule 4.05(d) talk to members of their own team only. An offending base coach shall be removed from the base coach’s box.
  4. Senor Azul

    Retreating part 2

    Mr. noumpere, the runner in the what-if scenario in the OP would not be out for being out of the “baseline” (and you know that it is the runner’s base path not the baseline—sticklers for correct terminology, where are you?). The runner would be out for running the bases in reverse order. Here are a couple of case plays from the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (pp. 279-280) illustrating this principle: P624: R1 stealing, R3, one out, 1-1 count. As R1 takes off, the batter takes the next pitch for strike two. The catcher comes up and immediately throws to third to try and catch R3 off guard, but R3 makes it back safely. As the third baseman tosses the ball back to the pitcher, R1 sprints from his position on second base back to first base to try and draw another throw. Ruling: The umpire should call time when R1 returns back to first, and call him out. P625: R1, R2, one out, 1-1 count. The next pitch is in the dirt and skirts a little ways away from the catcher. R2 starts for third but tries to return when the catcher retrieves the ball quickly. The catcher throws to second and gets R2 in a rundown. During the rundown, R1 advances to second base. R2 retreats safely back to second base, and continues past R1 towards first base. He makes it all the way back to first base on the play. Ruling: The umpire should call R1 out for passing when R2 passes R1 on his retreat to first. The umpire should then call time when R2 continues towards first base, and call him out.
  5. Senor Azul

    Retreating part 2

    “If a runner is not attempting to return to a base missed, he can be appealed.” Mr. noumpere, your statement is true for NCAA but not for OBR. Here is an official interpretation found in the 2016 BRD (section 11, p. 23): Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: If a runner overruns or overslides home plate, misses it but remains in the immediate vicinity and is returning to touch it, he must be tagged to be out. This rule applies only to home plate. At any other base whether a runner is immediately attempting to return to correct a violation or not, either he or the base may be tagged for an appeal anytime the ball is alive.
  6. The OP asks about verbal interference not verbal obstruction--they are two different things. In the OP the third base coach yells something that confuses the defense that allows a runner to score—that’s verbal interference. FED clearly differentiates the two actions in its rules 2-21-1 and 2-22-1. However, in OBR (and Babe Ruth plays under OBR rules) there is no rule to rely on but there is an official interpretation which I have already provided in addition to a case play. Just to reinforce what I have posted earlier, here is another case play—this one is from the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 240): Play P366: R1, R2, one out, 1-1 count. The batter hits a fly ball to right field that is caught. R2 tags up and attempts to advance to third while R1 goes halfway to second. As the throw comes into third, the third base coach yells, “Cut it! Cut it!” The second baseman cut the ball off. R1 returns to first base and R2 reaches third safely. Ruling: The umpire should signal interference and call time when the coach convinces the defense to cut off the throw. R2 is out, and R1 remains at first base.
  7. I haven’t found anything relevant in the Babe Ruth rule book. But I think most, if not all, leagues have a Code of Conduct for managers and coaches that might be of help. From the 2016 BRD (section 325, p. 215): OBR Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: In the judgment of the umpire, if members of the offense, including a coach, should yell remarks that confuse the defense, the runner who was aided is out; other runners remain TOI. Play 182-325: With R2 advancing on the pitch, B1 grounds to short. The offensive coach or players on the bench yell: “Third! Third!” The shortstop, confused: (a) throws to third, where R2 is safe as BR reaches first; or (b) hesitates, turns toward third, and then fires too late to first. Ruling: In FED/OBR, if the umpire judges the shortstop’s confusion resulted from the “help” given him by his opponents, the ball is immediately dead because of verbal interference. In (a), R2 is out, with BR remaining on first, credited as reaching base on a fielder’s choice. In (b), BR is out and R2 remains TOI. In NCAA, the play stands in either (a) or (b).
  8. Senor Azul


    The 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual states (p. 48) that only during continuous action can a force be removed and also reinstated. It also states that a force can be reinstated only when a runner acquires his advance base and then returns past that base in retreat toward his time-of-pitch base. And that is how it is defined in the actual rule-- 2019 OBR rule 5.09(b) Retiring a Runner Any runner is out when: (6) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;
  9. Mr. Jimurray, have you joined Ozzy Osbourne on the crazy train? Why else would you be following this guy from thread to thread harassing him? He has done nothing except ask for our help. Isn’t that why we are here? You should be mentoring him and not hectoring him. This is beneath you and I think you should apologize. And I also think the moderators should delete your post. Mr. agdz59, if you have any questions in the future I would be happy to answer them if I can. If you prefer, you could PM me and I would respond with a helpful attitude and would not berate you or demean you. And I certainly would not be discussing BMs with you.
  10. From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.19, p. 101): When a pitcher swings any part of his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, it is a balk if he does not pitch to the batter, unless he throws (or feints a throw) to second base on a pickoff play. (Note that this violation is in reference only to the pitcher’s foot. If the knee of the pitcher’s free leg passes behind the back edge of the rubber but his foot does not, he may legally throw to first base with no violation.)
  11. Each of the rule sets has a section where the basic terms of the game are defined. The college rule (in its 2019 rule 2-78) actually uses the words touching a base with any part of the body when defining the term tag. The following text is from the 2019 pro rules— 2019 Official Baseball Rules (from the appendix Definitions of Terms) A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove… High school rules might be more precise in its definition (2018 rule 2-24) because it differentiates the types of outs into force-outs, tag outs and throw outs. Here’s how they define the terms force out and throw out (note that high school doesn’t mind referring to the play in your scenario as a force)— ART. 1 . . . A force-out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing (9-1-1 for special case.) ART. 5 . . . A throw out is a putout caused by a throw to first base to retire a batter-runner, or to any other base to which a runner is forced or is required to retouch.
  12. Mr. noumpere, I would like to know how you are able to state categorically that the out stands and that all codes rule the same on this play. Seriously, you may be right but you did not provide one shred of supporting evidence. I can find a little written about base coaches who get involved with play but I cannot find anything written about the defensive coach being on the field of play without permission. I found the following case play about an offensive coach ignoring the umpire’s instruction that could conceivably be applied to the OP. 2012 Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 19: Having already had an offensive conference, the head coach asks for time to talk with the new batter. U1 informs the coach that he is allowed only one charged conference per inning while on offense. The head coach ignores U1 and attempts to talk with the batter. RULING: U1 should do his best to professionally prevent the offensive conference from taking place. If the conference is taking place before the plate umpire realizes the infraction, he should stop the conference and warn the coach. If the head coach ignores the umpire and holds his conference to completion, he shall be restricted to the bench. Depending upon his subsequent behavior, the coach may be subject to ejection. Upon being notified by the plate umpire that the conference is not allowed, the head coach should stop his conference and he and his player return to their positions. (3-4-2, 10-1-1) And if you applied the OBR definition of when a conference begins as when the coach crosses the foul line, then you could conceivably call time when the coach crossed the foul line in the OP. That would at least provide some poetic justice as the defensive coach’s action would cost his team an out.
  13. As usual I have plenty of supporting evidence for my earlier post. Let’s start with the analysis of this play written by Gil Imber of Close Call Sports. The article is titled MLB Ejection 195—John Libka (3; Scott Servais) and dated September 11, 2019. Gil’s call is that rule 6.03(a)(3) Comment is the applicable rule. And the website baseballrulesacademy.com wrote an analysis of the play and arrived at the same conclusion—that rule 6.03(a)(3) is the applicable rule. Their article was credited to their Rules Desk so I cannot say exactly who wrote the article but their staff includes Chris Welsh, Ted Barrett, Rich Marazzi, Rick Roder, and Sam Griffith. The following is an excerpt from their analysis. Servais argued correctly that when Dietrich’s bat contacted the ball on the “follow-through” the ball should have been called “dead” and no runners advance. Since it was strike three on Dietrich, the game should have ended right there. But none of the umpires saw the ball contact Dietrich’s bat. This is not a reviewable play so Mariners were forced to get one more out to finally win the game. This is a rare play but it is covered in the OBR, 6.03(a)(3) Comment. “If a batter strikes at a ball and misses and in the umpire’s judgment unintentionally hits the catcher or the ball in back of the batter on the follow-through or backswing while the batter is still in the batter’s box, it shall be called a strike only (no interference). The ball will be dead, however, and no runner shall advance on the play.”
  14. Strictly speaking, Mr. yawetag, you are correct. But as in most cases there are opinions to the contrary. Here’s one from Carl Childress that appears in his 2016 BRD (section 464, p. 310): Umpire-school mechanics will get an amateur umpire in trouble in some of the lower leagues. In Play 290-464 when the ball is dead and the umpire makes the initial award, he will say: “You, home!” When the runner does exactly that, and the plate umpire calls him out on appeal—you can surely imagine the hubbub. For lower leagues (NCAA and down—grin), simply say: “You, third base!” NOW if he doesn’t go back and retouch first, your conscience will be clear when you call him out. And here is the play that is referenced in the preceding note— R1. B1 smashes a high fly deep to center field. R1, moving on the pitch, thinks the ball will not be caught. After rounding third, he realizes the ball was caught after all and will be relayed to first for the out. R1 retouches third and is heading for second, but he has not yet retouched that base when the ball goes dead. So, Mr. noumpere and Mr. ArchAngel72, you are not alone in your opposition to the way we are told to handle this type of play.
  15. From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.27, p. 108) regarding the backswing interference in Cincinnati v Seattle game (this interpretation should also be found in the current MLBUM): BACKSWING (FOLLOW-THROUGH) HITS CATCHER Rule 6.03(a)(3) [former Rule 6.06(c)]: If a batter strikes at a ball and misses and in the umpire’s judgment unintentionally hits the catcher or the ball in back of the batter on the follow-through or backswing while the batter is still in the batter’s box, it shall be called a strike only (no interference). The ball will be dead, however, and no runner shall advance on the play. If this infraction should occur in a situation where the catcher’s initial throw directly retires a runner despite the infraction, the play stands the same as if no violation had occurred. If this infraction should occur in a situation where the batter would normally become a runner because of a third strike not caught, the ball shall be dead and the batter declared out. This interpretation applies even if the catcher is in the act of making a throw to retire a runner. That is, if the batter is in the batter’s box and his normal backswing or follow-through unintentionally strikes the catcher or the ball while the catcher is in the act of throwing, “Time” is called and runners return (unless the catcher’s initial throw retires the runner).
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