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Senor Azul

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Senor Azul last won the day on August 13 2021

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About Senor Azul

  • Birthday 07/16/1947

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  1. Mr. Richvee, it is written into every rule set that one umpire cannot overrule another. The principle I was taught is that umpires can and should confer but ultimately it is the calling umpire’s decision. Here’s how Hunter Wendelstedt puts it in his 2013 WRIM (p. 148): “When determining where to award runners because of obstruction, it may be necessary for more than one umpire to rule on the play. If one umpire calls the obstruction, and another makes the call of out on a play following the obstruction, the initial umpire may call time and award the runner the base he would have received had the obstruction not occurred.”
  2. Senor Azul

    Missed base

    Mr. agdz59, is this what you are asking about? 2019 Case Book Play 8.2.2 Situation M: With R2, B2 hits a grounder to left field. R2 touches third base but misses the plate in attempting to score. F7 having thrown home, F2 steps on the missed base to retire R2 and throws to F6 in an attempt to put out B2: (a) before R2 attempts to return home; or (b) after R2 attempts to return to touch home plate. RULING: (a) Upon proper defensive appeal, R2 would be ruled out. (b) Since R2 initiated action prior to the defense touching the plate, R2 must be tagged to record the out. R2 may legally return to touch home if he has not touched the steps of the dugout and if a subsequent runner has not yet scored.
  3. Senor Azul

    Missed base

    The following text is from the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.12, p. 55): “A runner does not acquire the right to an unoccupied base on an attempt to retire the runner until he touches it before he is put out. This is true regardless of whether the umpire’s act of not making a call signifies to the defensive team that the runner failed to touch the base for purposes of an appeal play.” Play 1: Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag as he passes it with both feet. Ruling 1: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to make no call on the play because the batter-runner has not yet touched first base. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out… This mechanic first appeared in the book for the 2018 edition of the MiLBUM. Someone posted back then that it was also in the 2018 Major League Baseball Umpire Manual. Someone also posted that this mechanic was not being taught at the umpire school.
  4. Senor Azul

    Missed base

    The rule that tells us that a runner is presumed to have reached a base even though he has not actually touched it is 5.05(b)(3) Comment—in other words the base is his even though he has not legally acquired the base. Rule 5.06(a) tells us that a runner acquires the legal right to a base when he touches it before he is out. 2021 OBR Rule 5.05(b)(3) Comment: If catcher’s interference is called with a play in progress the umpire will allow the play to continue because the manager may elect to take the play. If the batter-runner missed first base, or a runner misses his next base, he shall be considered as having reached the base, as stated in Note of Rule 5.06(b)(3)(D). And for high school the following interpretation can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 362, p. 242): FED Official Interpretation: Hopkins: If BR misses first but beats the throw, he is “considered safe” and the umpire should so signal. If the defense appeals, the umpire will reverse his call. 2015 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 20: The batter hits the ball to the shortstop who bobbles the ball and throws late to first base. The batter-runner beats the throw but does not touch first base. RULING: The runner beats the ball on the play and is considered to be safe. The defense must appeal the missed base or tag the batter-runner before he returns to first in order to have the out declared for the missed base. (8-2-1 Penalty)
  5. The runner in your scenario would be safe if he retouched home and then beat the throw to third. Here are the relevant rules-- 2021 OBR rule 5.08 How a Team Scores (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning… Rule 5.08(a) Comment: A run legally scored cannot be nullified by subsequent action of the runner, such as but not limited to an effort to return to third base in the belief that he had left the base before a caught fly ball. But the runner did not score legally—he had not tagged up (retouched third) before advancing to home. He can return to third even after touching home plate as long as he complies with the rule 5.06(b)(1) and retouches home on his way back to third base. 5.06 (b) Advancing Bases (1) In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.06(c). In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.
  6. Here is the actual text from the FED rule book that supports what has already been posted and answers the question posed by our guest (also Mr. beerguy55’s question)— 2019 NFHS rule 3-1-1 …In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and: a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced, b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher’s plate, c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, or d. a batter takes his place in the batter’s box. …If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team. This would invalidate the action of the illegal offensive player. Any out(s) made on the play stands and all other runners return to the base(s) occupied at the time of the pitch. In a game-ending situation, discovery must be made before all infielders leave the diamond (i.e., all infielders cross the foul lines). An illegal player on defense shall be replaced immediately upon discovery by the umpire or either team. If an illegal player on defense is involved in a play, and the infraction is discovered by an umpire or either team prior to the first pitch to the next batter of either team, the team on offense has the option to let the play stand or to allow the batter to bat again…
  7. Here’s the actual rule that governs a batter who throws his bat—please note that there are indeed limitations on throwing the bat at a pitch. This rule entered the rule book in 2016-- 2021 OBR rule 6.03 Batter Illegal Action (a) A batter is out for illegal action when: (4) He throws his bat into fair or foul territory and hits a catcher (including the catcher’s glove) and the catcher was attempting to catch a pitch with a runner(s) on base and/or the pitch was a third strike. *** The Official Playing Rules Committee made the following changes that will be in effect for the 2016 season… • Added new Rule 6.03(a)(4) regarding a batter who throws his bat and hits the catcher. Exception now applies to Rules 6.03(a)(3) and 6.06(a)(4). Comment now applies to 6.03(a)(3) and 6.06(a)(4). • Renumbered previous Rule 6.03(a)(4) to Rule 6.03(a)(5) and renumbered previous Rule 6.03(a)(4) Comment to Rule 6.03(a)(5) Comment.
  8. Does anyone remember middle infielder Mike Phillips? He had an 11-year career in the majors and according to a post I found in another officiating website he actually got a hit by throwing his bat at a pitch-- Once in the eighties, Mike Phillips of the Mets was being intentionally walked and for whatever reason he threw the bat at the ball and got a single on a soft fly into centerfield. I think the fielders were caught off-guard. That is pretty cool but Mike Phillips didn’t play for the Mets in the 1980s so this may be apocryphal. He did play for the Mets in the 1970s—he was a Met in 75, 76, and 77. Actually getting a hit with a thrown bat has to be extremely rare if this is true. Does anyone remember this incident?
  9. Just to back up the relevant rule (1-16d)--George Demetriou says in his 2019-2020 NCAA Study Guide (Chapter 7, p. 201): “No equipment shall be left lying on the field. Gloves, bats, and other equipment must be kept in the dugout or other dead-ball area. Any ball that strikes equipment left on the field remains in play.” He reiterates the point in Chapter 4 in a section of items listed as Not Interference on page 124. And the 2016 BRD references rule 1-16d as the way the NCAA handles it with no qualifiers.
  10. The Brad Rumble interpretation—that throwing the bat at a pitch is considered to be carelessly throwing the bat--is based on FED rule 3-3-1c and its penalty is warning/ejection… SECTION 3 BENCH AND FIELD CONDUCT ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not: c. carelessly throw a bat; PENALTY: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected. In (b), it is also obstruction (8-3-2).
  11. What have you been told or what authoritative opinion have you read about a batter throwing his bat at a pitch? Would it be unconditionally OK or are there caveats we all must take into account? Sadly, there isn’t much written about this question—the following is about all I have found so far. 2016 BRD (section 98, p. 84) FED Official Interpretation: Rumble: If a batter throws his bat toward a pitch, that constitutes a carelessly thrown bat with all attendant penalties. And on page 85 the following case play can be found: FED only: R1. Left-handed B1 attempts to sacrifice. The defense detects the play and pitches out. B1, attempting to protect the runner, throws his bat at the pitch. The bat sails very near F5, charging in for the play. Ruling: B1 is guilty of carelessly throwing a bat. And this from baseballrulesacademy.com— “Sometimes a batter will throw his bat at a pitch during a hit-and-run and lose his grip on the bat. This is a dangerous situation and should be discouraged. If the umpire determines that the bat is thrown intentionally and it interferes with a fielder making a play, two outs could be called.” So it would seem to me that the general principle of a batter being responsible for his bat not interfering would apply also to a bat thrown at a pitch. What do you think?
  12. I am pretty sure the rules committee was not thinking of something from the Ministry of Silly Walks when they used the word unnatural. From dictionary.com (one of the six meanings given for the word unnatural) Unnatural--at variance with what is normal or to be expected: WORDS RELATED TO UNNATURAL abnormal, bizarre, incredible, odd, outlandish, outrageous, perverse, preposterous, stilted, strange, ersatz, extraordinary unusual, affected, aberrant, anomalous, assumed, concocted, contrary, contrived, 2019 NFHS Case Book Play 7.3.5 Situation E: With less than two outs, R2 and B2 at the plate, R2 attempts to steal third. In the process, B2, who bats right-handed, after swinging or not swinging at the pitch, (a) makes no attempt to get out of the way of F2 throwing to third or (b) is unable to make an attempt to get out of the way of F2 throwing to third. As a result, F2 cannot make a play on the runner. Is B2 out, and must R2 return to second? RULING: B2 is not guilty of interference in (a) or (b). B2 is entitled to his position in the batter’s box and is not subject to being penalized for interference unless he moves or re-establishes his position after F2 has received the pitch, which then prevents F2 from attempting to play on a runner. Failing to move so F2 can make a throw is not batter interference. In the video the batter moved and put his bat in the catcher’s throwing lane which was then hit by the catcher’s throw—that’s interference with his bat which is also part of the MiLBUM cite.
  13. Senor Azul

    Dropped bat

    For high school ball you can use rule 7-2-3— 2020 FED rule 7-2 ART. 3 . . . A foul ball or a fair hit (which may be a bunt) occurs when a pitch is touched by the bat of the batter who is in his box (2-5-1, 2-16- 1, 2).
  14. Senor Azul

    OBR

    Mr. Aluck, no runs count in your scenario because the rule book tells us so (see exception 1 below)— 2021 OBR rule 5.08 How a Team Scores (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.
  15. 2021 OBR 6.03 Batter Illegal Action (a) A batter is out for illegal action when: (3) He interferes with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.42, p. 127): “In addition to stepping out of the batter’s box, interference may be interpreted as any unnatural movement by the batter or his bat within the batter’s box…” From the 2016 BRD (section 280, p. 182) OBR: Authoritative Opinion: Evans: The batter is obligated to avoid making any movement which obstructs, impedes, or hinders the catcher’s play in any way. A swing which carries the batter over home plate and subsequently complicates the catcher’s play or attempted play should be ruled interference. Contact between the batter and catcher does not necessarily have to occur for interference to be ruled. Merely blocking the catcher’s vision to second base may very possibly be interference. (JEA/6:46) 2019 Case Book Play 7.3.6 Situation: “…because B1 is responsible for controlling his bat and not allowing it to interfere with a defensive player attempting a play…”
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