When does an umpire cross the line?

[mjdudz]

I was a parent at a game for my 14u son a few days ago. From the beginning of the game there were some bad call, which I dismissed as the usual biased view of calls. But soon these calls escalated into calls with no basis in the rules. Balks were called with the explanation of "We're the umpires, we know it's a balk, trust us." This explanation was given for many calls. It then escalated even more when the umpire began making immature comments like, "Just shut up" "Quit complaining" "Just deal with it" and "You clearly don't know the rules of baseball". Every time our coach attempted to ask a question the ump ignored him and when the coach asked to get the rulebook from his car so the ump could explain he threatened to throw the coach out of the game. Then, after the end of the game, the coach attempted to get the umpires name to talk to the league director and the umpire ignored him and walked to the parking lot. After packing everything up the coach saw the umpire standing outside his car getting ready to leave so he went up and attempted to talk to him once more. The umpire proceeded to slam the door of the car and drive away from the field. At what point does an umpire cross the line? How do you react when this happens to you?

[mjdudz]

Note: He did this to both teams but most was targeted at our team

[dumbdumb]

I was a parent at a game for my 14u son a few days ago. From the beginning of the game there were some bad call, which I dismissed as the usual biased view of calls. But soon these calls escalated into calls with no basis in the rules. Balks were called with the explanation of "We're the umpires, we know it's a balk, trust us." This explanation was given for many calls. It then escalated even more when the umpire began making immature comments like, "Just shut up" "Quit complaining" "Just deal with it" and "You clearly don't know the rules of baseball". Every time our coach attempted to ask a question the ump ignored him and when the coach asked to get the rulebook from his car so the ump could explain he threatened to throw the coach out of the game. Then, after the end of the game, the coach attempted to get the umpires name to talk to the league director and the umpire ignored him and walked to the parking lot. After packing everything up the coach saw the umpire standing outside his car getting ready to leave so he went up and attempted to talk to him once more. The umpire proceeded to slam the door of the car and drive away from the field. At what point does an umpire cross the line? How do you react when this happens to you?

What this does, to the parent who has this happen, assuming all the above is true (why wouldn't it be since you personally experienced it) is to immediately take action by vowing to go into umpiring and becoming the best umpire in the world to make sure this never happens again to anyone in that 14U League that just had this happen. You must read every single rule book, case book, mechanics book, manuals for each and every level there is, and know which ones to apply in every single case. The reason you must know the rules for all the levels, LL, 14U travel ball, USSA, Babe Ruth, Colt, Pony, Ripken, High School, College, Minor Leagues, Major Leagues and the mechanics and positioning for each of these groups and levels, is because many parents and others, intermingle the rules from each of these organizations to match the point they are trying to make. You should have a photographic memory for all of these so you can converse and explain to those who question you exactly why you did something you did and call them out if they are trying to use something from a different group than the one you are working to fit their point. Some things are just old wives tales so to speak but you must know how to convey the true rule and situation in an unauthoritarian, unegotistical, unarrogant, unknowitall way so that they totally understand and could give a dissertation themselves after you have laid out the rule and solved the problem both on the technical side and also changing that technical side into layman's terms so as not to leave the question asked still in doubt. You must attend clinics for each of the levels, you could start with the Little League one in Williamsport in September. There will also be local (in the area you live or probably within 50 miles for every single group out there) If you have to travel farther, then so be it, you do want to be the best you can be so you do not cheat the kids and the parents wouldn't you think??Then there is the pro school down in Florida in February. You need to go there for about $3,000-$4,000 so you can see how the professionals are taught and bring back the good things you learn from their teachings, even though you are not interested in going pro. There are probably many things learned there that can be learned and used in the 14U ball. There will also be camps for College umpires and High School umpires all over the country where you could learn and use things that would help in 14U. So, work that calendar and work that pocket book and get going on working to become the best 14U umpire in the country. Remember to always stop the game to explain each and every rule in its entirety to both the coaches and parents whenever they ask. Don't give some short choppy snippy answer. Both you and they deserve each others undivided attention and respect. Don't cheat them out of an education on the rules. Maybe one could carry a blackboard and explain every question that is asked to by writing out the answer and giving visible examples of both the correct and incorrect thinking on the questions asked. The coaches and parents and kids playing the game deserve no less than all the above. Yes, you are going to be po'd at this answer and say that I am a wisearsch, but in absolutely all reality and not joking one bit, this is truly what needs to be done.

[JaxRolo]

Wow all I see is somebody biased opinion of an umpire.

Maybe the coach was being a rat. At some point we all have our breaking point.

It's just a game! Play on!

[jjb]

MJdudz: the response you're getting here is the result of us trying to read between the lines here. What we're reading is "the Umpires were making rules interpretations and not explaining them". Taking that statement on its' face, we'd have to agree that there was a problem here. All of us are generally happy to explain why we made a particular ruling. But, we're also thinking about our own experiences out there, where the coach either wants every call to turn into a rules clinic, or turn every answer into "yes it is/no it isn't". So, I guess in that circumstance I'd have to turn the question into "where does the Umpire draw the line?"

 

If I call a balk and the coach want to know why, I may say "he didn't stop". Then the response goes to "he changed direction, that's a stop". "No, he's got to come to a discernable stop" "Well, we had a play last week, where...." At this point, I'm thinking we've got to get back to the game, and this guy wants to bring out the book, the beer and the chicken wings. (There's a time and place for that, and this isn't it.) So, I'm going to stop the conversation the best way I can. This is where the emails come out, saying 'the Umpire wouldn't explain his ruling".

 

I wasn't there, so I admit I don't know for sure, maybe, just maybe, the truth is somewhere between your interpretation and mine.

[maven]

Youth ball is instructional for everyone: coaches, players, umpires. Just do the best with whatever talent you get in coaches, players, and umpires. Learn the game, and treat mistakes as learning opportunities for everyone.

 

And for the love of mike have fun!

[grayhawk]

I think the OP is made up.  A coach with a rule book?  I'm not that gullible.

[Larry in TN]

I think the OP is made up.  A coach with a rule book?  I'm not that gullible.

 

I keep one in my score-keeping bag.  Does that count?  

[BalkHawk]

@dumbdumb - MOTM!

[dumbdumb]

@dumbdumb - MOTM!

 

Lena Blackburne baseball rubbing mud.

 

http://www.fourwheeler.com/girls/1307-mud-girls-of-the-month/

[coachshook77]

First off, let me say that I am in my second year of umpiring. Secondly, let me add that I have been coaching high school baseball for 21 years. I want to give you a view from the coaches box first.

I wanted to begin umpiring to have a better understanding of what the umpire has to deal with. I have just completed my 26th year of teaching and coaching (been coaching basketball and football for all 26 years) and love the game and would like to eventually call HS ball. I can tell you that I have only been tossed one time and I deserved it. When I disagree with a call, I always stat my opinon, get blues view point, express my opinon once more and then walk away. I know that a continued act of stupidity by me will only have an effect on any close calls that I may need later on in the game. I have never had an umpire overturn a call nor would I expect it to happen. I have had the plate umpire confer with his partner due to one maybe being out of place but, if the don't change it - I live with it. I have watched a runner beat the tag due to the 1st base mans foot being a little off the bag but 20 years ago an umpire told me that his angle does not allow him to see the foot off the bag by an inch. I CAN LIVE WITH THAT! The one thing I have learned is not to be an ass about it. If an umpire ever tries to get an attitude with me, I just say, "I'm going to be professional about this since I need my job, how about you." Never been dumped for that.

Now from blues stand point.

In most calls you are only going to make 50% of the people happy. I have already heard, "Last game we played blue gave us that pitch" and I just keep my mouth shut and go on my way. I may not be perfect but, I try to be consistent each game. I have found a lot of coaches that know parts of the rules and don't want to hear the remainder of them. I have been guilty of that as a coach.

If you want to know who was calling the game, go to the league director since he should have a record of it from the booking secertary. NEVER EVER, EVER TAKE IT OFF THE FIELD! If the coach saw him in the parking lot, he should have let it alone. I can tell you that if an umpire, football or basketball official ever came up to me at my vehicle regarding something that happen in a game - he would probably get his ass kicked. I have an administrator, athletic director and Georgia High School Assocation that are all open for them to lodge a complaint. If I have a probably with them, I have their booking association and Georgia High School head of officials that I can contact.

[DVA7130]

Chirping gets ignored until it becomes a problem.

 

We are not a walking rule clinic, we keep the game moving with short explanations. If the coach comes out with an attitude, the chance of any explanation (or appeal for that matter) drops.

 

Rulebook on field = ejection.

 

No, I am not talking to you in the parking lot. Follow me, and I am leaving before even changing.

[Jocko]

i don't know about you guys but I cross the line every time i step into fair territory

[Jocko]

I seriously do not understand why people think it is appropriate to discuss the past in the parking lot. I would never dream of approaching a coach to tell him why I was right. Why do they think it's appropriate to come to me at my vehicle to tell me why they think I was wrong?

#1. I wasn't wrong.

#2. Don't ever talk to me off the field about anything but how good a job I did.

#3. The game is over. And it was a 14u game. Get a life, fkr

[UMP45]

First off, let me say that I am in my second year of umpiring. Secondly, let me add that I have been coaching high school baseball for 21 years. I want to give you a view from the coaches box first.

I wanted to begin umpiring to have a better understanding of what the umpire has to deal with. I have just completed my 26th year of teaching and coaching (been coaching basketball and football for all 26 years) and love the game and would like to eventually call HS ball. I can tell you that I have only been tossed one time and I deserved it. When I disagree with a call, I always stat my opinon, get blues view point, express my opinon once more and then walk away. I know that a continued act of stupidity by me will only have an effect on any close calls that I may need later on in the game. I have never had an umpire overturn a call nor would I expect it to happen. I have had the plate umpire confer with his partner due to one maybe being out of place but, if the don't change it - I live with it. I have watched a runner beat the tag due to the 1st base mans foot being a little off the bag but 20 years ago an umpire told me that his angle does not allow him to see the foot off the bag by an inch. I CAN LIVE WITH THAT! The one thing I have learned is not to be an ass about it. If an umpire ever tries to get an attitude with me, I just say, "I'm going to be professional about this since I need my job, how about you." Never been dumped for that.

Now from blues stand point.

In most calls you are only going to make 50% of the people happy. I have already heard, "Last game we played blue gave us that pitch" and I just keep my mouth shut and go on my way. I may not be perfect but, I try to be consistent each game. I have found a lot of coaches that know parts of the rules and don't want to hear the remainder of them. I have been guilty of that as a coach.

If you want to know who was calling the game, go to the league director since he should have a record of it from the booking secertary. NEVER EVER, EVER TAKE IT OFF THE FIELD! If the coach saw him in the parking lot, he should have let it alone. I can tell you that if an umpire, football or basketball official ever came up to me at my vehicle regarding something that happen in a game - he would probably get his ass kicked. I have an administrator, athletic director and Georgia High School Assocation that are all open for them to lodge a complaint. If I have a probably with them, I have their booking association and Georgia High School head of officials that I can contact.

So what your saying is if you make an umpire angry he is going to CHEAT and make up calls to get even? Is that how YOU umpire? Really.

[coachshook77]

Not at all what was implied here! I can tell you from experience that from the box that some plays can go either when it's a bang-bang play. I've seen them over the years and have had them tell me it could have went either way. If you stay in the guys ear all night, it tends to set back in the corner of the mind. If you read a little closer you will see that I said, "I try to be consistent". Never did I mention cheating at any time. Judge not less ye be judged!

Personally, I have seen it from both sides, guys that are not willing to admit mistakes because they feel they are beyond reproach.

[Jocko]

@coachshook77 - if it can 'go either way' it's an out.

[dumbdumb]

First off, let me say that I am in my second year of umpiring. Secondly, let me add that I have been coaching high school baseball for 21 years. I want to give you a view from the coaches box first.

I wanted to begin umpiring to have a better understanding of what the umpire has to deal with. I have just completed my 26th year of teaching and coaching (been coaching basketball and football for all 26 years) and love the game and would like to eventually call HS ball. I can tell you that I have only been tossed one time and I deserved it. When I disagree with a call, I always stat my opinon, get blues view point, express my opinon once more and then walk away. I know that a continued act of stupidity by me will only have an effect on any close calls that I may need later on in the game. I have never had an umpire overturn a call nor would I expect it to happen. I have had the plate umpire confer with his partner due to one maybe being out of place but, if the don't change it - I live with it. I have watched a runner beat the tag due to the 1st base mans foot being a little off the bag but 20 years ago an umpire told me that his angle does not allow him to see the foot off the bag by an inch. I CAN LIVE WITH THAT! The one thing I have learned is not to be an ass about it. If an umpire ever tries to get an attitude with me, I just say, "I'm going to be professional about this since I need my job, how about you." Never been dumped for that.

Now from blues stand point.

In most calls you are only going to make 50% of the people happy. I have already heard, "Last game we played blue gave us that pitch" and I just keep my mouth shut and go on my way. I may not be perfect but, I try to be consistent each game. I have found a lot of coaches that know parts of the rules and don't want to hear the remainder of them. I have been guilty of that as a coach.

If you want to know who was calling the game, go to the league director since he should have a record of it from the booking secertary. NEVER EVER, EVER TAKE IT OFF THE FIELD! If the coach saw him in the parking lot, he should have let it alone. I can tell you that if an umpire, football or basketball official ever came up to me at my vehicle regarding something that happen in a game - he would probably get his ass kicked. I have an administrator, athletic director and Georgia High School Assocation that are all open for them to lodge a complaint. If I have a probably with them, I have their booking association and Georgia High School head of officials that I can contact.

Remember that quote in "Pretty Woman", something like "i never called you a whore", and the response that he could not hear as he turned and walked away was "you just did".

 

The line above "I know that a continued act of stupidity by me will only have an effect on any close calls that I may need later on in the game" was the exact same thing. You might as well have called all umpires whores. Now maybe you know where some of the scepticism about the fraternity of coaches, players and Managers comes from. That's all we umpires are, just a piece of meat, just a punching bag, just a necessary evil. Hasn't changed and never will. We have to know our place, nobody comes to see the umpires, they all come to see the others (players, managers, coaches) in uniform. Thanks for the reminder. Now where is the I love umpires, they have a tough job speech after just kicking us in the teeth. Unfortunately it is an adversarial relationship, whether we like it or not. Just the way it is, has been and always will be. I did not take things as bad as this sounds (my lines above), but it did remind me of just being a piece of meat, even in my little wiffle ball league.

[JaxRolo]

@coachshook77 - if it can 'go either way' it's an out.

^^^THIS^^^

[UMP45]

Not at all what was implied here! I can tell you from experience that from the box that some plays can go either when it's a bang-bang play. I've seen them over the years and have had them tell me it could have went either way. If you stay in the guys ear all night, it tends to set back in the corner of the mind. If you read a little closer you will see that I said, "I try to be consistent". Never did I mention cheating at any time. Judge not less ye be judged!

Personally, I have seen it from both sides, guys that are not willing to admit mistakes because they feel they are beyond reproach.

The implication of cheating was there. Either coach or umpire you can't combine both. I bet you've never said "call it both ways"either have you? Oh and by the way you wouldn't stay in my ear all night! Are you going to manage your players or the umpires?

[Richvee]

I don't know what, or who to comment on 1st. So I'm just going to to list some random thoughts about a multiple comments made by a multiple of people in this thread.

1. I must work some of the most laid back travel ball in the world. I'll explain rulings to coaches on the field in short and concise terms. If they are professional and courteous, I have no problem talking with them more in depth after a game about the ruling, the rule, etc.

2. I can honestly say I've NEVER made a call on a close play one way or another with ANY THOUGHT WHATSOEVER as to what coach has given me a hard time or what team the last call went against. The last thing on my mind when I'm concentrating on a bang/bang play or balls and strikes is what team I should give a benefit of the doubt or a break to. 

3. I've never told a coach a call "could have gone either way." Bad choice of words, IMO. "Coach, it was close. In my judgement, he beat the throw/the ball beat him/he got under the tag/beat the tag" is my answer. And, no, it's not always an out.

4. As for the OP. I'm calling it a HTBT. Hard to judge coach's and/or umpire's attitude, level of  professionalism or demeanor  from anyone's post without being there. 

[Majordave]

I'm of the mind to ask for a new U-E members/posters rule. No more Coach in user names. I don't believe you can be both and it's somewhat offensive to me to see guys who claim to be umpires with Coach in their user names. Either you're an official or a coach. Can't be both in the same sport. Conflict of interest.

My .02

[Jocko]

@Majordave- hear hear

How many times have you been told (by a coach) "Im also an umpire:

Anytime a coach tells me he's an umpire too, it sets my radar off. All he's telling me is that he THINKS he knows the rules, and expects me to extemd professional courtesy when he wants to talk. In my experience, these ump/coaches are either lying or they are HORRIBLE umpires. Just last weekend a coach told me TWICE during the course of the game that he was an umpire and has been for many years. When a BOO situation arose, he was CLUELESS how to handle it. After I explained the situation, he was still scratching his head. "I thought you said you were an umpire?" He sheepishly walked away.

Is it possible to wear both hats, sure. Will you be successful in both roles? Highly doubtful. Because, once you TRULY become an umpire, the game never looks the same again.

[Rich Ives]

I seriously do not understand why people think it is appropriate to discuss the past in the parking lot. I would never dream of approaching a coach to tell him why I was right. Why do they think it's appropriate to come to me at my vehicle to tell me why they think I was wrong?

#1. I wasn't wrong.

#2. Don't ever talk to me off the field about anything but how good a job I did.

#3. The game is over. And it was a 14u game. Get a life, fkr

 

So who should they ask about a rule?

 

Are you positive about #1? 

[SoCal Lurker]

I'm of the mind to ask for a new U-E members/posters rule. No more Coach in user names. I don't believe you can be both and it's somewhat offensive to me to see guys who claim to be umpires with Coach in their user names. Either you're an official or a coach. Can't be both in the same sport. Conflict of interest.

My .02

 

A conflict of interest to be a coach and an umpire?  Huh?  There's a conflict if you are umping games that could affect your team, but that's about it.  But you can only do one at at time.  Now coaches who say "well, I'm an umpire [or referee]" are being %$*#s -- umpires [or referees] who are in the process of coaching a game aren't looking at it through umpire eyes, but coach eyes.  Personally, I think coaches benefit a lot from doing some umpiring [or refereeing] as it helps them see the game in a differne way. 

 

(In soccer, I've found the same with referees -- coaching and understanding the flow of the game that coaches are trying to teach their teams helps referees, especially those who did no play as much, read the game more effectively.  [i don't know the extent to which that translates to baseball, which is more episodic than flowing.])

[Jocko]

I seriously do not understand why people think it is appropriate to discuss the past in the parking lot. I would never dream of approaching a coach to tell him why I was right. Why do they think it's appropriate to come to me at my vehicle to tell me why they think I was wrong?

#1. I wasn't wrong.

#2. Don't ever talk to me off the field about anything but how good a job I did.

#3. The game is over. And it was a 14u game. Get a life, fkr

 

So who should they ask about a rule?

 

Are you positive about #1? 

They should first read the rulebook for themselves. Then, if they have a LEGITIMATE rules question, they should ask the SA/TD/AD/etc. That person, in turn, can come to me for proper rule/rule interp.

Absolutely positive. :P