Live vs. Dead, HBT, Penalties & Procedure

[MadMax]

Fellow umpires, I need to present a situation to you. Personal and professional relationships are affected by it (along with financial, as in who owes who a beer... or two).

This situation was presented to me (us - a group of friends and colleagues):

"I put a pitcher in play standing on rubber taking signs. 2nd baseman had ball trying to trick runner. I called a balk. Right or wrong?"

The responses started to roll in of "Right on" and "Right" and "100%". I picked up on the "put a pitcher in play..." component, meaning that the ball was Dead, thus, the following HBT could not work. I countered, and said, "Not a balk. Reset. The ball cannot be put in "Play" because the components for doing so were not correct." I went further to say (while others are still saying "Balk" and "That's deception!"), "Nope. Ball cannot be made live (with Plate Umpire saying "Play!") until the pitcher has the ball on the mound on the rubber, ready to pitch (or take signs). If the ball was still Live all along, then yes, that's a balk. But you cannot have a HBT work out of a Dead Ball situation. Cannot. Impossible."

I was then embroiled in a cascade of belittling declaratives and arguing, mostly centering around how I'm "obtuse" and how what F1 & F4 did was "deception" and should be called a "balk". I then said, "In order for the umpire to call "Play" and make the ball Live, the pitcher must have the ball and be on the rubber, ready to pitch (or take signs). Otherwise, his standing anywhere else means nothing, because the umpire cannot make the ball live until those criteria are met. Even if you (the umpire) mistakenly call "Play!", the only recourse is to reset it back to the conditions when Dead. R2, F1 with ball (finally), ready to pitch, "Nice try next time!", and Play!"

Further declaratives were presented, such as "It is deception because the pitcher cannot be on the rubber without the ball." and "It's a balk." The original questioner then stated "I had Time (called) because (the) base came up (off its moorings).", further reinforcing that it was, in fact, a Dead Ball situation, and that the PU had to make the ball Live again... which means that Rule 5.11 (2014) has to be followed. I was then subjected to a severe text-lashing, with one such statement presented - "Max, I can call anything I want to at any time 'cause I'm the ump".

Then, Rule 6.02a (Comment... it must be 2015 re-numbering quoted) was presented several times: "If there is a runner, or runners, on base it is a balk when: Straddling the pitcher's rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk." I responded, each time, "When the ball is Live, (that's) absolutely (correct)." Next, was a truly wonderful statement: "You're just FULL OF CRAP Max!!" I then quoted Rule 5.11 again, this time verbatim. The words "Idiot" and "Hard headed" were then applied to me. To his credit, the OP then asked, "What about deception though... No penalty?" I replied with, "Ball was never Live."

I have since talked with a couple of the discussion participants individually, and while civil and friendly, there is a sentiment that, for this "deception", the defense must be penalized with a Balk call. My fundamental point is that it can't be – it cannot be a Balk, it cannot be an Out, it cannot be anything – because the ball wasn't Live to begin with. Because the Umpire(s) lost track of where the ball is, and the PU said "Play!" in error does not make that ball Live, because according to the Rules, that ball has to be in the possession of the pitcher in order to be (made) Live; the ball residing in the F4's glove is Dead, and cannot be made Live by any declaration of (any/the) umpire.

In essence, in order for Rule 6.02 (which I guess in the 2015 renumbering was 8.02?) to be valid and applied (a Live ball), then 5.11 has to be valid and followed.

I am rather upset by this discussion. In no way am I trying to one-up anyone, nor am I trying to get anyone to say, "Wow Max, you are right, and we're nothing in your brilliance!". I'm just trying to point out the simple fundamental fact. I have no criticism of the OP, who called "Play!" without recognizing the ball not in the possession of the pitcher – these sort of things happen to any/everyone one us. There's plenty of us who have not even put a ball back into "Play!" after a foul ball! And I don't have a criticism of him calling a Balk... He didn't seem to get any kick-back at the time about it. He approached our group with this question, because it was bugging him. I don't even have a qualm with most of my colleagues who feel that a Balk should be called (Again, I think I'm right that Balk isn't warranted, by Rule), because, of course, I may be wrong. I'm confident that I'm not, but I could be. The answer lies in the Rules, and the official interpretation and application of them... and this here "obtuse idiot" wants to know what needs to be interpreted and applied for this situation.

Thank you for your attention and insights... Let 'em rip.

[VAUmp]

Reset - No Play - The ball can't be put into play when F4 or F6 or anyone other than F1 has the ball (and ready to pitch).  Reset and make sure that F1 has the ball before you put the ball in play.  

[pnewton]

You are correct.  By definition the ball cannot become live in this scenario.  It is wrong to penalize either team for such an error on the part of the umpire.

[grayhawk]

You are the sole voice of reason in a sea of ignorance. 

[StrikeToWin]

I had this almost identical situation happen and I incorrectly called a "BALK".  No one said anything at the time but I learned from it and will no how to handle it the next time it happens.

[MadMax]

@StrikeToWin, did you post about it here on U-E? The only reason I know what the "proper" answer is is because of that (or another) topic here, and all the guys' answers about it ( @johnnyg08's in particular comes to mind).

 

Edited June 15, 2015 by MadMax
Added the other Topic, corrected umpire cite

[StrikeToWin]

Yeah, I did and that's when I figured out that I had ruled on it incorrectly @MadMax .  That's another reason I love this site.  It keeps me humble by pointing out that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

[ElkOil]

Max, breathe easy and smugly gloat (inwardly or outwardly) in the warm waters of being right.  Don't let 'em get to ya'!

[Replacematt]

Use this counterpoint: after a dead ball, F1 starts his delivery but stops after he realizes the ball is not live. Would they balk that?

[maven]

Use this counterpoint: after a dead ball, F1 starts his delivery but stops after he realizes the ball is not live. Would they balk that?

​Exactly, or a feint to 1B, or not stopping, or...

[Jimurray]

My tally goes up on the balk side. 5 balks to 1 nothing. I'm with the nothing's in the real world but  it appears to be the losing side. 

Edited June 16, 2015 by Jimurray

[BuckeyeMike]

Had numerous pick-off attempts during a dead ball this past weekend in a 14U (USSSA) tourney.    "No play!   The ball's dead."    

Had a balk in which the pitch was delivered and the BR struck out.   That was fun, trying to explain that it was a no pitch.  Then the BR walked on the next legal pitch.  DOH!   LOL

[johnnyg08]

I think you would lose a protest if you balked the hidden ball trick when you improperly made the ball live when it shouldn't have been made live.

Plain and simple, there are certain elements that must be in place before the ball can become live after "Time" has been called.

If ALL of those elements aren't met, then we don't have a live ball and there is no penalty on the defense.

What if after a foul ball, R2 takes off for 3b and just stands there?  Obviously you would tell him to go back to 2b because you can't steal a base when the ball is dead.  The same applies here.

It's nothing.  But like a said, a guy I met this winter who worked well into NCAA post season this year disrespected the heck out of me this past winter arguing this point...but I just don't see how you can balk a play that by rule shouldn't have been live.  Period.

 

 

[ricka56]

TLDR

[johnnyg08]

My tally goes up on the balk side. 5 balks to 1 nothing. I'm with the nothing's in the real world but  it appears to be the losing side. 

​Have them give you the definition of what you need to make the ball live. 

Then I will show you guys who have no idea how to execute the hidden ball trick during live action.  

 

 

[Matthew Turner]

This happened to me today. Frosh HS ball. I'm on the bases. HT can't throw a strike and tries to steal an out coming out of a defensive conference. Plate puts ball in play thinking F1 had it in his closed web glove. F5 tags R3. I signal safe then explained that the ball remained out of play. Plate umpire came out and asked for my reasoning. I explained. He agreed. HT coach also came out, not to argue, but to figure out what had happened. I explained. He said, "Oh, I didn't know that." I also explained that had the ball been in play, the ruling would have been a balk. HT coach said, "Oh, I thought the pitcher just couldn't be on the rubber."

I think I handled it correctly without showing up my partner. Thanks @MadMax and other contributors. I probably would have balked this last week. It didn't help the 26-1 walk fest end any sooner, however. The active shooter situation a mile a way and the possibility of a lock down made it rather interesting, but that's another story.

[indianaumpire15]

This happened to me today. Frosh HS ball. I'm on the bases. HT can't throw a strike and tries to steal an out coming out of a defensive conference. Plate puts ball in play thinking F1 had it in his closed web glove. F5 tags R3. I signal safe then explained that the ball remained out of play. Plate umpire came out and asked for my reasoning. I explained. He agreed. HT coach also came out, not to argue, but to figure out what had happened. I explained. He said, "Oh, I didn't know that." I also explained that had the ball been in play, the ruling would have been a balk. HT coach said, "Oh, I thought the pitcher just couldn't be on the rubber."

I think I handled it correctly without showing up my partner. Thanks @MadMax and other contributors. I probably would have balked this last week. It didn't help the 26-1 walk fest end any sooner, however. The active shooter situation a mile a way and the possibility of a lock down made it rather interesting, but that's another story.

To ask a question off this response.  On a HBT what are the mound area and pitching plate restrictions for the pitcher?

Nevermind found it.

OBR is on or astride pitching plate.

NCAA is on the mound circle.

FED is within five feet of pitchers plate.

Edited June 20, 2015 by indianaumpire15
Found answer to my own question.

[maven]

This happened to me today. Frosh HS ball. I'm on the bases. HT can't throw a strike and tries to steal an out coming out of a defensive conference. Plate puts ball in play thinking F1 had it in his closed web glove. F5 tags R3. I signal safe then explained that the ball remained out of play. Plate umpire came out and asked for my reasoning. I explained. He agreed. HT coach also came out, not to argue, but to figure out what had happened. I explained. He said, "Oh, I didn't know that." I also explained that had the ball been in play, the ruling would have been a balk. HT coach said, "Oh, I thought the pitcher just couldn't be on the rubber."

I think I handled it correctly without showing up my partner. Thanks @MadMax and other contributors. I probably would have balked this last week. It didn't help the 26-1 walk fest end any sooner, however. The active shooter situation a mile a way and the possibility of a lock down made it rather interesting, but that's another story.

​Umpire-Empire: better calls, one umpire at a time.

[Matthew Turner]

​Umpire-Empire: better calls, one umpire at a time.

​You really have no idea. Coaches, ADs, parents, and other umpires are usually surprised when I tell them I'm less than 20 games in to umpiring. I did a 10-session class this winter which was good for the hands on stuff. Reading posts on here and occasionally posting questions has gone farther than the 30 hours of training. Most of all, I have way more confidence than I would have with just the training. I'm not sure I would have known how to handle the coach this morning that said, "that's two now, blue," if not for reading almost every thread in the ejection forum.

[jpperez14]

To ask a question off this response.  On a HBT what are the mound area and pitching plate restrictions for the pitcher?

Nevermind found it.

OBR is on or astride pitching plate.

NCAA is on the mound circle.

FED is within five feet of pitchers plate.

 

I always thought for the hidden ball trick, the pitcher cannot be anywhere in the dirt on the mound. In any level, OBR, NCAA, and NFHS. 

Interesting that OBR says he can't straddle or be on the rubber.

[noumpere]

 

I always thought for the hidden ball trick, the pitcher cannot be anywhere in the dirt on the mound. In any level, OBR, NCAA, and NFHS. 

Interesting that OBR says he can't straddle or be on the rubber.

​Most people start with the OBR knowledge.  A few start with the FED knowledge.  You are the first person I know of who started with the NCAA knowledge.