Dead ball ground rule double

[Guest Tad]

Its a timed ball game. With new inning starting as last out is recorded. Tie ball game runners on 1st and 2nd 2 outs. 15 seconds left on the clock. Batter hits a 1 hopper over the fence forna dead ball ground rule double. The runner from 2nd scores but the runner from 1st touches 2nd and thinks game is over. He back tracks to celebrate at 1st. With about 6 seconds to go the batter/runner passes the runner between 1st and 2nd. We call time and call the out. And new inning starts. Is this the correcr call 

[yawetag 594]

13 minutes ago, Guest Tad said:

Its a timed ball game. With new inning starting as last out is recorded. Tie ball game runners on 1st and 2nd 2 outs. 15 seconds left on the clock. Batter hits a 1 hopper over the fence forna dead ball ground rule double. The runner from 2nd scores but the runner from 1st touches 2nd and thinks game is over. He back tracks to celebrate at 1st. With about 6 seconds to go the batter/runner passes the runner between 1st and 2nd. We call time and call the out. And new inning starts. Is this the correcr call 

Once the run scores, it doesn't matter.

[LRZ 253]

I'm not sure what you are asking, as your scenario involved two calls. One, the out on the BR for passing R1, and two, starting a new inning with six seconds left. In either case, R2's run counts. But that's not your question, right?

[noumpere 2,937]

36 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Once the run scores, it doesn't matter.

Why not?  It wasn't the "last" inning (9 or 7, usually).

[Larry in TN 130]

58 minutes ago, Guest Tad said:

Its a timed ball game. With new inning starting as last out is recorded. Tie ball game runners on 1st and 2nd 2 outs. 15 seconds left on the clock. Batter hits a 1 hopper over the fence forna dead ball ground rule double. The runner from 2nd scores but the runner from 1st touches 2nd and thinks game is over. He back tracks to celebrate at 1st. With about 6 seconds to go the batter/runner passes the runner between 1st and 2nd. We call time and call the out. And new inning starts. Is this the correcr call 

The ball was already dead when it went out of play.  Once the runners legally completed their base award it's just like any other time out.  Nothing happens.  No runners can be passed.  No outs can be recorded.  For an out, you'd need a base runner error, ball back in play, then a successful appeal.

And, why would the umpires call time a second time?  Time was out when the ball went out of play.

[Matt 1,347]

34 minutes ago, Larry in TN said:

The ball was already dead when it went out of play.  Once the runners legally completed their base award it's just like any other time out.  Nothing happens.  No runners can be passed.  No outs can be recorded.  For an out, you'd need a base runner error, ball back in play, then a successful appeal.

And, why would the umpires call time a second time?  Time was out when the ball went out of play.

Are you 100% sure?

[maven 4,435]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Are you 100% sure?

He isn't any more!

[beerguy55 496]

1 hour ago, Guest Tad said:

Its a timed ball game. With new inning starting as last out is recorded. Tie ball game runners on 1st and 2nd 2 outs. 15 seconds left on the clock. Batter hits a 1 hopper over the fence forna dead ball ground rule double. The runner from 2nd scores but the runner from 1st touches 2nd and thinks game is over. He back tracks to celebrate at 1st. With about 6 seconds to go the batter/runner passes the runner between 1st and 2nd. We call time and call the out. And new inning starts. Is this the correcr call 

Did the run score before or after the third out?

 

[The Man in Blue 128]

NFHS 2018

Rule 8 Baserunning

ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:

m. passes an unobstructed preceding runner before such runner is out (including awarded bases);

If you were using NFHS, sounds as if we are playing another inning ... assuming there were no strange rules on the time limit.

 

Oh, and learn better game management unless you like those garbage innings at the end.  

[The Man in Blue 128]

9 hours ago, yawetag said:

Once the run scores, it doesn't matter.

No, it wasn’t a walk-off in the last inning.  I started to fall into that trap when looking up NFHS rules, then I noticed it.

Time was still on the clock in a timed game (pass your own judgement on time games).

[The Man in Blue 128]

8 hours ago, Larry in TN said:

The ball was already dead when it went out of play.  Once the runners legally completed their base award it's just like any other time out.  Nothing happens.  No runners can be passed.  No outs can be recorded.  For an out, you'd need a base runner error, ball back in play, then a successful appeal.

And, why would the umpires call time a second time?  Time was out when the ball went out of play.

Assumption that this played under NFHS ...

Except the base runner did NOT legally complete his base award.

That and the NFHS rule does not say runners can only be passed during a live ball.  In fact, it specifically says otherwise.

[Larry in TN 130]

8 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Except the base runner did NOT legally complete his base award.

The OP's description sounded like all runners completed their base award.  How did they not?

[noumpere 2,937]

3 minutes ago, Larry in TN said:

The OP's description sounded like all runners completed their base award.  How did they not?

 

17 hours ago, Guest Tad said:

Its a timed ball game. With new inning starting as last out is recorded. Tie ball game runners on 1st and 2nd 2 outs. 15 seconds left on the clock. Batter hits a 1 hopper over the fence forna dead ball ground rule double. The runner from 2nd scores but the runner from 1st touches 2nd and thinks game is over. He back tracks to celebrate at 1st. With about 6 seconds to go the batter/runner passes the runner between 1st and 2nd. We call time and call the out. And new inning starts. Is this the correcr call 

R1 did not complete his award, and BR was out (for passing) before completing his award.

[maven 4,435]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

R1 did not complete his award, and BR was out (for passing) before completing his award.

I agree that's what happened, and that principle seems to be the basis of ruling the BR out. But I've been looking without success for a rule that requires this prior to the game ending.

FED 9-1-1 EX. Note 2 and OBR 5.08(b) apply with bases loaded and a run forced to score, and they require only advancing to the next base, not the awarded base (though in those situations, the next base WAS the awarded base). The runners in the OP all advanced to the next base prior to the passing, so they satisfied the letter of the rule.

Is there some other guidance?

[yawetag 594]

@maven, I guess the game wasn't technically over when the runner passed. There were still 6 seconds on the clock, so a new inning (with the HT now up by 1) begins.

[maven 4,435]

16 minutes ago, yawetag said:

@maven, I guess the game wasn't technically over when the runner passed. There were still 6 seconds on the clock, so a new inning (with the HT now up by 1) begins.

My clock isn't that accurate.

[noumpere 2,937]

10 minutes ago, maven said:

My clock isn't that accurate.

I agree -- but the OP's clock seems to have been that accurate (heck, maybe it's displayed on the field, and both teams can see the clock at the time BR passed R1).

[beerguy55 496]

OK - now I get it.  The run scores, the inning ends with six seconds left before the "no new inning after" time, and a new inning starts.   Visiting team now down by a run, with one more life.

I'm assuming there's either a big clock on display, or a dedicated time keeper to have this this accurate?

[Aging_Arbiter 1,211]

Day game or night game?

[The Man in Blue 128]

1 hour ago, yawetag said:

@maven, I guess the game wasn't technically over when the runner passed. There were still 6 seconds on the clock, so a new inning (with the HT now up by 1) begins.

That ^.

 

I started to go down the path of a game-ending walk-off, but that is not what occurred due to the clock.  I deleted what I started to post to avoid confusion.  I won’t post the whole thing (it’s a bit long and convoluted as it contains many different things), but NFHS 4.2(2) states “If the home team scores a go-ahead run in the bottom of the seventh inning, or in any extra inning, the game is terminated at that point.”  You would have to extrapolate that to accommodate a timed game, but that isn’t too much of a stretch.  Then I suppose you could still allow a proper dead ball appeal, but the out would not nullify the run so it is a moot point.

 

[The Man in Blue 128]

1 hour ago, maven said:

My clock isn't that accurate.

Game management.  Game management, man.  

 

I hate to make comments like that because I don’t want to take away from the kids.  In a game like this (tied or one-run difference) I don’t mind playing another inning with 6 seconds on the clock.  However, in my experience it is usually a blowout that is one run short of the required run-rule (typically because we can’t even get to the minimum innings due to the home team not being able to get outs) and the visiting team is the one in the lead.  That means you are playing another FULL inning of garbage time.  The visitors are never nice enough to go 3-up-3-down and 30 minutes later you are finally wrapping up a 21-0 game.

My suggested rule change for timed tournament games: Should either team go up by the run rule after the time limit expires, the game is immediately over (drop dead).  You can complain the home team may not get to bat, but the home team had several chances and did nothing.  Why are we going to push everybody else’s day back because the wrong team won the coin toss?

[noumpere 2,937]

13 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

My suggested rule change for timed tournament games: Should either team go up by the run rule after the time limit expires, the game is immediately over (drop dead).  You can complain the home team may not get to bat, but the home team had several chances and did nothing.  Why are we going to push everybody else’s day back because the wrong team won the coin toss?

Or just let the home team bat again if the visitors are up by "close to" the run limit (and, yes, it needs to be defined); if they catch up, then the Visitors get to bat.  Cuts off the half inning that is "needed" less than 1% of the time.

[yawetag 594]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Or just let the home team bat again if the visitors are up by "close to" the run limit (and, yes, it needs to be defined); if they catch up, then the Visitors get to bat.  Cuts off the half inning that is "needed" less than 1% of the time.

Rule idea for the Clown League (I think they call it the Atlantic League - sounds nicer): You keep pitching innings as long as you're ahead. Once an inning ends and you're tied or losing, you get to hit. So you might have a team take a 9-0 lead in the first and just pitch the other 9 innings without coming back up to bat.

[Senor Azul 334]

Gil Imber (of Close Call Sports) wrote about runners passing each other on a ground rule double in an article dated September 16, 2016. He labeled the article Case Play 2016-11 Time to Pass a Runner. The game involved the White Sox and the Royals and was played on September 10 of that year (the batter-runner was Tyler Saladino and R1 was Leury Garcia). If the following link does not work perhaps Mr. grayhawk could find video of this play using his MLB subscription.

http://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2016/09/11/1156383683/1473559339073/asset_1200K.mp4

After 2016, the MLB Umpire Manual for 2017 wrote, concerning runners passing runners, "Runners passing are not protected from being called out in accordance with Rule 5.09(b)(9) by time being called or other dead ball situation (e.g, ground-rule double, home run, etc.) if they are still in the act of running the bases.

[yawetag 594]

Link to GIl's story (which includes a video): https://www.closecallsports.com/2016/09/case-play-2016-11-time-to-pass-runner.html

[LRZ 253]

23 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Rule idea for the Clown League (I think they call it the Atlantic League - sounds nicer): You keep pitching innings as long as you're ahead. Once an inning ends and you're tied or losing, you get to hit. So you might have a team take a 9-0 lead in the first and just pitch the other 9 innings without coming back up to bat.

That is called "cricket"--one team bats until out, then the other team gets its "innings."