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Squeeze out fo box?

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You all gave some good opinions on my batters interference call, I figured I get some opinions on this one:

 

Batter called out on squeeze....

What do you think?

 

 

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Nope, his foot was not on the ground outside the batter's box when he hit the ball, his foot was in the air.  Of course, we have the luxury of IR!

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In NFHS

Rule 7 Batting

SECTION 3 BATTING INFRACTIONS—A BATTER SHALL NOT:

ART. 2 . . . Hit the ball while either foot or knee is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter’s box or touching home plate.

As awkward as that was, I got a fair ball and a successful squeeze.  Unless I am missing something.

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Guest layers73
3 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

In NFHS

Rule 7 Batting

SECTION 3 BATTING INFRACTIONS—A BATTER SHALL NOT:

ART. 2 . . . Hit the ball while either foot or knee is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter’s box or touching home plate.

As awkward as that was, I got a fair ball and a successful squeeze.  Unless I am missing something.

Thats what we though too!

I might add this was the last inning of a state semi-final game (not that the inning should matter) ....winner moves on to the state championship.

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You said batter's interference - did you mean an illegally batted ball?  It's clearly neither, but what was the call on the field?

Also, I know it's a big game, but the behavior of both the coach and the umpire are inappropriate.  There was a bump by the coach and then the umpire gets pretty aggressive.

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Guest layers73
4 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

You said batter's interference - did you mean an illegally batted ball?  It's clearly neither, but what was the call on the field?

Also, I know it's a big game, but the behavior of both the coach and the umpire are inappropriate.  There was a bump by the coach and then the umpire gets pretty aggressive.

I was referencing the good input I received previously when asking about a batters interference call so wanted to ask about this one

This was ruled "Batter in contact with plate" when he bunted..... called out and runners return to 2nd and 3rd 

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Guest layers73

slow motion footage follows the coach/umpire argument...

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6 minutes ago, Guest layers73 said:

I was referencing the good input I received previously when asking about a batters interference call so wanted to ask about this one

This was ruled "Batter in contact with plate" when he bunted..... called out and runners return to 2nd and 3rd 

I see what you mean on your comment about batter's interference.  There is no infraction on this play - the call was incorrect.  In fact, the batter did a hell of a job getting the bat on the ball without committing an illegally batted ball infraction.

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10 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Also, I know it's a big game, but the behavior of both the coach and the umpire are inappropriate.  There was a bump by the coach and then the umpire gets pretty aggressive.

Remember, this was Jersey. If no gunplay erupted, then it's all good!

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19 minutes ago, maven said:

Remember, this was Jersey. If no gunplay erupted, then it's all good!

Some day, NJSIAA might wake up and look at these calls that seem to happen in their state playoffs every year and come up with a little better system of picking post season crews. 

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42 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Some day, NJSIAA might wake up and look at these calls that seem to happen in their state playoffs every year and come up with a little better system of picking post season crews. 

Many states have that problem. It's not a NJ-only issue.

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I find a lot of umpires on plays like these (coaching softball for years you see it a lot more with running slaps and a lot more phantom out calls), umpires see things that aren't there - they see all this movement and conclude the batter must have been out of the box, rather than actually seeing it happen - because, they're actually doing their job and watching the ball, not the feet.   They're either jumping to a conclusion, or their brain is filling in the gaps.

I lost count the number of times an umpire adamantly claimed to have seen the foot on the ground outside the box when in the end all evidence pointed to the contrary...whether it be video of the at bat (reviewed after the game, not as a tool to argue with umps), or even a simple assessment of footprints (or lack thereof) around the box/plate at the time of the call.

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4 hours ago, Richvee said:

Some day, NJSIAA might wake up and look at these calls that seem to happen in their state playoffs every year and come up with a little better system of picking post season crews. 

Wow. Judgemental much?

That's pretty harsh. Tough call in a tough situation. Easy to watch it all in replay and slow motion and see the error. Not so much in real time. Casting the first stone kinda thing. 

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18 minutes ago, WilsonFlyer said:

Wow. Judgemental much?

That's pretty harsh. Tough call in a tough situation. Easy to watch it all in replay and slow motion and see the error. Not so much in real time. Casting the first stone kinda thing. 

It's tougher than it has to be unless you change your mentality.  If you don't see a foot touching outside the box/the plate there's no call to make.  (and, yes, from time to time you will miss when a batter actually is outside the box - that's a lot easier to forgive and understand)

So, how is he seeing a foot touching the plate when it isn't?  At the time the ball hits the bat he is (should be) watching the ball.  He's almost certainly "guessing" that the batter's foot was touching the plate, likely because it looks "weird" as the batter is jumping and coming across the plate at the same time.

Unless it's really egregious an umpire should not be making this call.   They can't make this call.  Because they're watching the ball.

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To call a batter out for hitting the ball with a foot on the ground outside the batter's box is a very difficult call to make since the PU is watching the ball not the batter's feet.  It says the umpire called the runner put for hitting the ball with a foot on the plate. The batter never even stepped on the plate so how could that be the basis for the out call?  The umpire "assumed" it happened and we all know what that means.

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I can see how the PU assumed that the batter stepped across to reach that pitch, instead of jumping.

As PU, if you don't call it, but suspect it, should you call time (after play stops) and go to your partner and correct the non-call if your partner's sure the batter actually did step on the plate?  Seems like a higher probability route to take.

What's the right approach?

Edited by ousafe

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6 minutes ago, ousafe said:

I can see how the PU assumed that the batter stepped across to reach that pitch, instead of jumping.

As PU, if you don't call it, but suspect it, should you call time (after play stops) and go to your partner and correct the non-call if your partner's sure the batter actually did step on the plate?  Seems like a higher probability route to take.

What's the right approach?

Glance at your partner.  If he has information (a less than 1% possibility here), he will give you that "come talk to me look."  Don't just go out.

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5 hours ago, WilsonFlyer said:

Wow. Judgemental much?

That's pretty harsh. Tough call in a tough situation. Easy to watch it all in replay and slow motion and see the error. Not so much in real time. Casting the first stone kinda thing. 

You're not from Jersey. You don't get it.

One of the three man crews in NJ's state semi-finals yesterday had two softball umpires. To most that would sound crazy, but here it is SOP. A reasonable person might ask how this is so.

Umpires are selected to work deeper rounds of the playoffs based on any number of unknown, unverified, and/or undocumented parameters. Once selected, in order to maintain a sense of neutrality, umpires are sent to areas of the state where they typically do not work during the regular season. So a umpire who lives in the northern part of the state, like I do, might be sent to the southern part of the state to umpire a game. This sounds reasonable until the details of when games are played and travel are calculated.

NJ playoff games start at four and the NJSIAA (NJ's governing body) requires that umpires and pitch counters are on site one hour prior to game time. That would mean an expected arrival time of 3:00. That does not sound unreasonable. The crew that worked this game hails from Atlantic County, which is at the southern end of the state. The game was played at the neutral site of Monmouth University. For arguments sake, the trip from their home would be at least 63 miles for the umpires. That's an hour travel, meaning that any umpire who was assigned that game would have to be on the road at 2.

I dare say that most people would have some level of difficulty leaving their job at 2 to go umpire. So what is the state to do when a good umpire who is assigned such a game cannot make the game because of job or travel concerns? Available umpires are then assigned based once again on the unknown, unverified, and/or undocumented parameters. These replacements are not the first choices, but usually the second, third or fourth choices. Last week, when afternoon thunderstorms wreaked havoc on the statewide tournament, games were being moved to 10, 12, or 2 starts. I had to give a game back because it was moved to a 12:00 start. My boss would never let me leave school to go umpire and I would never ask. Others may have vacation or personal time, but I do not have that luxury.

I am quite sure the gentlemen working this game are nice men. I am also sure that there were dozens of umpires who were not considered for this assignment not because they were unworthy, but because the regulations the NJSIAA adheres to when assigning umpires to later rounds prevents some of the best umpires in the state from working the games most deserving the best umpires. Let us not forget this reversal in a state championship. 

Was @Richvee harsh? Don't think so. Judgmental? Nope.

Aware? Yep  Amazed? Yep

Me too.

 

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Here's what I wrote about the play over at YouTube:

Looking at 0:29, just before the ball was contacted, even if either foot was down, neither foot is completely outside where I would consider the lines to be.

Using the netting as a guide, there's one vertical line just to the left of the plate. The next one over would be a good estimate on where the line closest to the plate would be. There's also a horizontal net line that would approximately follow the front of the box (it's the one that goes through the toe of his left foot and the middle of his right foot). Neither of those indicate either foot is completely outside the box.

That's all assuming either foot is down, which I don't believe they are. If they're in the air, it doesn't matter their position.

All that said, I'm getting this information from stopping the video. The umpire's seeing it live and I can't necessarily fault him for making the call. With these types of plays, it's VERY difficult to make the call correctly, simply because you're tracking the pitch, not the batter's feet. In my training, we've been taught to only grab this call when it's blatantly obvious -- this case isn't that obvious. With the lines being almost gone, the speed of the play, and the fact he leaped to make the hit, I would need something really definite to call this, and I don't see anything definite.

Again, I'm not lambasting the umpire -- he made and sold the call. It's only through stopping and slow motion that I can even make the determination that the batter didn't illegally contact the ball.

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16 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

One of the three man crews in NJ's state semi-finals yesterday had two softball umpires. To most that would sound crazy, but here it is SOP. A reasonable person might ask how this is so

I personally don't find this crazy.  Outside of the pitching piece the rules are almost identical, and for the amount of times illegal pitches and balks happen in softball and baseball, I wouldn't be overly concerned.  Yeah, I know some mechanics and positioning need to get worked out. And it may be a bit more difficult for the umpires.

 In all honesty the teams and coaches, and the people watching, don't care as long as the quality is there.  Sure, in the weird and unusual places you're gonna wish you had some baseball experience there, but for the amount of times that comes up, what players really want are quality umpires who can accurately and consistently call balls, strikes, fair, foul, safe and out.   That's where 99% of the game lies.

In coaching teams from community leagues to National Championships and international tournaments, I have come to one undeniable conclusion...in any scenario for a softball game, from a rec ball league game to the Olympic gold medal,  I would rather have a highly skilled and experienced baseball umpire than an inexperienced softball umpire to call the game.  And in my experience as a baseball player into the college and semi-pro level, I feel the same way about an experienced softball umpire vs. a green baseball umpire..

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Nowhere in my post did I reference the quality or experience of the umpires assigned to the game.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I personally don't find this crazy.  Outside of the pitching piece the rules are almost identical, and for the amount of times illegal pitches and balks happen in softball and baseball, I wouldn't be overly concerned.  Yeah, I know some mechanics and positioning need to get worked out. And it may be a bit more difficult for the umpires.

 

I’m not trying to make a personal insult beerguy, but if you really believe this, then you don’t really understand it.

The rulesets are vastly different (whether or not they should be is a different discussion) and those subtle differences could mean the difference between a State Championship and elimination.  In games that should be the highest caliber of teams, they should have the highest caliber of officials.  Not “good enough.”

And yes, it isn’t just NJ.  Here they say there is a scoring system, but in reality ... the scoring system itself is skewed, but politics always win out.

 

 

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22 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I’m not trying to make a personal insult beerguy, but if you really believe this, then you don’t really understand it.

The rulesets are vastly different (whether or not they should be is a different discussion) and those subtle differences could mean the difference between a State Championship and elimination.  In games that should be the highest caliber of teams, they should have the highest caliber of officials.  Not “good enough.”

And yes, it isn’t just NJ.  Here they say there is a scoring system, but in reality ... the scoring system itself is skewed, but politics always win out.

 

 

Oh, I understand it far more than you'll ever know.

The rule sets are not "vastly" different....not where it matters...(especially fast pitch to baseball) in many cases I find softball and baseball are closer to each other than OBR and NFHS baseball.   The Official Rules of Softball derived from the Official Baseball Rules - you can even see that in the language of how ORS is written.  The other rule sets derive from those two.

Baseball and softball are vastly the same.

And, yes, I said very clearly I want the highest caliber of officials in those games...and IMO, a high quality 20 year veteran baseball umpire is more equipped to officiate an important SOFTBALL game than a six month softball-specialized rookie.   And vice versa.

The most important part of the game is the out/safe, ball/strike, fair/foul - that is where the vast vast majority of your calls occur, the vast vast majority of disputes occur, and the greatest chance, by an enormous margin, of impacting the outcome of a game.   This is the stuff coaches, players and fans care about.  That is where the true integrity of the game lies...and the optics around it.   And in those areas the games are virtually identical.

Catches are the same.  IFF the same.  Force Plays.  Walks.   Strike zone is close enough...the difference is much smaller than the margin of error and variance between umpires of either sport.  D3K.  Four bases.  Three outs.  Foul tips.  Four balls.  Three strikes.  Home team bats last.  And so on.   The stuff that matters, and the stuff that covers 99.9% of the plays, a highly skilled umpire of either sport could call a game of either sport and no player, coach or spectator would know or notice.

I will take an experienced umpire who is damn good, damned near perfect, at calling those banger plays, even if he's short on the balk rules (for example), over a guy who consistently misses safe/out calls by a full step, or calls strikes at the eyeballs, but is assigned to the proper sport.  You can go several games with out seeing a balk, an illegal pitch, or in softball an early leadoff.  You can't go an inning without noticing if an ump has zero clue how to call a strike or an out/safe play.

On 6/5/2019 at 10:21 AM, Kevin_K said:

Nowhere in my post did I reference the quality or experience of the umpires assigned to the game.

And???   I simply explained why I didn't find it so crazy - specifically to the point of having a softball umpire officiate a baseball game.  Now, if good baseball umpires are being replaced by SH*#ty softball umpires that's a different discussion.  But all things being equal, the notion of a softball umpire officiating a baseball game, or vice versa, is not so crazy to me.  Any more than a softball player playing baseball.    To the contrary, the derision, condescension and prejudice I have witnessed over the years between the two sets and sports is crazy to me.

 

 

Edit: I also want to apologize if this came across as belittling or dismissive of the knowledge requirements in the specialized areas.  That was not my intent.  I respect the focus and dedication required to achieve expertise in one area, as I also respect those who are able to pass back and forth between sports and rules sets seamlessly.  I simply wish to prioritize, and celebrate, where the games are the same, and believe that is where the success, and fun, lies.

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On 6/4/2019 at 5:48 PM, yawetag said:

Here's what I wrote about the play over at YouTube:

Looking at 0:29, just before the ball was contacted, even if either foot was down, neither foot is completely outside where I would consider the lines to be.

Using the netting as a guide, there's one vertical line just to the left of the plate. The next one over would be a good estimate on where the line closest to the plate would be. There's also a horizontal net line that would approximately follow the front of the box (it's the one that goes through the toe of his left foot and the middle of his right foot). Neither of those indicate either foot is completely outside the box.

That's all assuming either foot is down, which I don't believe they are. If they're in the air, it doesn't matter their position.

All that said, I'm getting this information from stopping the video. The umpire's seeing it live and I can't necessarily fault him for making the call. With these types of plays, it's VERY difficult to make the call correctly, simply because you're tracking the pitch, not the batter's feet. In my training, we've been taught to only grab this call when it's blatantly obvious -- this case isn't that obvious. With the lines being almost gone, the speed of the play, and the fact he leaped to make the hit, I would need something really definite to call this, and I don't see anything definite.

Again, I'm not lambasting the umpire -- he made and sold the call. It's only through stopping and slow motion that I can even make the determination that the batter didn't illegally contact the ball.

I read that conversation.  And the one where you were called a fan. lol   Man, on that site you are fighting a losing batttle with people who will never admit they don't know the rule.  Even though you quoted the rule.

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