Is the umpire supposed to call time out instantly?

[Side Retired]

I'll try to be less uppity this time. Cal Ripken U14. Runner on second. 2 out. Ball gets away from catcher but not far. Runner steals third. Not so close play, runner is safe. Pretty obvious runner gets there first, but overslides and is hanging on third with one hand. Third baseman is holding tag on the runner. Runner raises other hand to call time. There's a pause in there somewhere apparently because neither umpire says anything. Probably a two or three count passes and the runner let's go of the bag to stand up. Base umpire calls him out. Obviously the coach is mad because the kid was asking for timeout and not given.

Not to start a fight here, but why wasn't the runner given timeout? He clearly requested it, the umps had time to give it, but they both waited a couple of beats then the runner lets go of the bag and he's out. I don't get it. When does timeout mean timeout?

[noumpere]

8 minutes ago, Side Retired said:

When does timeout mean timeout?

When the umpire grants it (and not when the runner requests it).  In your case, the umpire needs to be sure the runner has and can maintain secure possession of the base and that there's no other play going on.

[maven]

The two coaches on this kind of play will often perceive rather different times between the request and granting of time. The DC will think it's called too fast, and the OC too slow.

[Coach Carl]

Based on some of the videos I see on social media, the granting of "time" (or lack thereof) seems to generate a lot of angst.

I point you to the rules.  The umpires are given a list of reasons for which they may grant "time" (see OBR 5.12).  None of the reasons listed is: "allow a runner an opportunity to stand up without being in jeopardy of being put out."  By convention, umpires do grant "time" in those types of situations (and several others), even though they are are not listed in 5.12. 

However, the default position of the game should be for the ball to be live.   When a runner is granted time, nothing can happen until the pitcher has the ball on the rubber, the catcher is ready to receive the pitch and the batter is in the box ready to go (the plate umpire can't point "play" until all these conditions are met).  Any opportunity for the offense to advance or the defense to get an out is wiped away.  Due to this, umpires should take their time in calling "time".  Is play relaxed?  Is it really necessary? etc.    

In your situation, it is reasonable to expect a runner to "climb up" without leaving contact with the base in order to get ready for the next play.  He shouldn't need "time" in order to do so.  Many umpires will grant it, but it should not be expected.  And in all cases of asking for "time", players and coaches should be taught to wait until it is granted before doing anything that could result in a bad outcome.

[noumpere]

The problem is that in MLB time is routinely granted in similar situations.  But, that's done so they can change out the baseball.  Since we don't change out the baseball in our games, there's not nearly as much reason to grant time.

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, Side Retired said:

 

2 hours ago, Side Retired said:

Third baseman is holding tag on the runner

And there's the rub. The persistent holding the glove on the runner long after the play is over. You see it on pickoffs more than anything. It’s annoying as hell. (Pet peeve #51 but who’s counting 🤣)

Lessons for coaches of these kids—on offense—please teach these kids to climb up the bag so this nonsense doesn’t happen. 
defense - please take the glove off the runner and let him climb up the bag. If you want to stand there with the ball and watch him do it and make sure he doesn’t step off the bag, fine.  Just don’t sit there with your glove on him while he’s laying flat across the bag and all motion has stopped.

Just play the game. 

[BLWizzRanger]

3 hours ago, Richvee said:

 

Lessons for coaches of these kids—on offense—please teach these kids to climb up the bag so this nonsense doesn’t happen. 

 

How about they just stay where they are?  They don't need to climb up. Its awkward just laying there, yeah, but there is plenty of time to get up once the ball is with the pitcher...

 

 

[SH0102]

7 hours ago, Side Retired said:

I'll try to be less uppity this time. Cal Ripken U14. Runner on second. 2 out. Ball gets away from catcher but not far. Runner steals third. Not so close play, runner is safe. Pretty obvious runner gets there first, but overslides and is hanging on third with one hand. Third baseman is holding tag on the runner. Runner raises other hand to call time. There's a pause in there somewhere apparently because neither umpire says anything. Probably a two or three count passes and the runner let's go of the bag to stand up. Base umpire calls him out. Obviously the coach is mad because the kid was asking for timeout and not given.

Not to start a fight here, but why wasn't the runner given timeout? He clearly requested it, the umps had time to give it, but they both waited a couple of beats then the runner lets go of the bag and he's out. I don't get it. When does timeout mean timeout?

14 year olds should not need time to stand up, or throw ball back to the pitcher.  The ONLY reason I’d consider it in this case is because I’m annoyed by the defense standing there holding the tag and delaying the game moving forward, but it is NOT so the runner can stand up

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

How about they just stay where they are?  They don't need to climb up. Its awkward just laying there, yeah, but there is plenty of time to get up once the ball is with the pitcher...

 

 

  Because  it’s a total time waster. Climb up the bag,  throw the ball back to the pitcher. Let’s go. 

[BLWizzRanger]

8 hours ago, Richvee said:

  Because  it’s a total time waster. Climb up the bag,  throw the ball back to the pitcher. Let’s go. 

I would argue the time wasted is the fielder not throwing the ball back to the pitcher and waiting for the minuscule chance of catching the runner off the base. The game can't continue until the pitcher has the ball.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Couldn't find the clip from "Crimson Tide" but, to quote Gene Hackman...

"I will fire my missiles when I am GD ready to fire my missiles!"

Seems relevant here somehow...

~Dawg

[ArchAngel72]

I swear when some bonehead tries to be a smaht playah. and holds a tag on a kid laying down I want to go

"OK I'm gonna go get a hotdog and a soda, let me know when this is over"

 

 

[Central Cal Umpire]

So it sounds like umpires aren’t supposed to give time to just anyone for just anything. Ok got it. Still seems like they could have called time sooner if third baseman is just stalling by keeping the glove down. But I’m not an umpire by some people's standards so what do I know.

Edited June 22 by Central Cal Umpire
incomplete comment

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, Central Cal Umpire said:

So it sounds like umpires aren’t supposed to give time to just anyone for just anything. Ok got it. Still seems like they could have called time sooner if third baseman is just stalling by keeping the glove down. But I’m not an umpire so what do I know.

It's not that were looking to NOT call time. It's not that we're looking to CALL time. One of an umpire's primary responsibilities is to administer the game. Administering the game means (amongst other things)...keeping the game moving along at a reasonable pace for the level of play. Younger, inexperienced players need more "time outs". Older, more experienced players need fewer.

It's very nuanced and granular...

Injury? Yes, of course, we call time as quickly as possible. (Still a judgement call based on the situation AND a quick analysis of the injury...) Guy stubs his toe? We're waiting for ALL action to settle and calling time. Legit serious injury? We kill that instantly...(YMMV according to your local rules)

R1 and R3 and now F2 is calling time solely to give the infield play for the likely steal of 2B? No, we do NOT call time there. And...it's to the DEFENSE'S advantage that we don't call time there despite the fact that they are the ones requesting time. Think about it...the ball is in the center of the diamond. If either runner steals, that's a 60 foot throw (or less on the small field) to make an out. Stealing when F2 comes out to give the play is a very high risk play that will likely result in an out for the defense. If we call time there, we take away that opportunity to make that out...as unlikely as it is that someone would run.

Ball four to the batter and now coach wants to come out and have a mound visit so, he is asking for time? Sure, no problem...as soon as B/R gets to 1B and any other runners settle at their bases.

Nuanced...granular...everybody thinks umpires are being jerks when we either don't grant time or we don't grant time "instantly". Time is out and the ball is dead when the umpire calls time...NOT when a coach or player says, "Time...".

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

But Dawg, THEY pay our game fee!  Doesn’t that mean they can demand complete and total customer satisfaction?! 😉

Spot on with the “not looking to, not looking not to” description.

I will try to prompt players by letting them know why I am not calling it, before arbitrarily calling time.  

“You’re good, there’s no ball.”  

“Throw it back, nothing is happening.”  

“I’m not killing it for you to throw it 20 feet to the pitcher/to give signals.”

 

(If NFHS makes the proposed change, I will start granting the request for time for the catcher to give signals, as it will count as a conference.)

[Biscuit]

16 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

It's not that were looking to NOT call time. It's not that we're looking to CALL time. One of an umpire's primary responsibilities is to administer the game. Administering the game means (amongst other things)...keeping the game moving along at a reasonable pace for the level of play. Younger, inexperienced players need more "time outs". Older, more experienced players need fewer.

It's very nuanced and granular...

Injury? Yes, of course, we call time as quickly as possible. (Still a judgement call based on the situation AND a quick analysis of the injury...) Guy stubs his toe? We're waiting for ALL action to settle and calling time. Legit serious injury? We kill that instantly...(YMMV according to your local rules)

R1 and R3 and now F2 is calling time solely to give the infield play for the likely steal of 2B? No, we do NOT call time there. And...it's to the DEFENSE'S advantage that we don't call time there despite the fact that they are the ones requesting time. Think about it...the ball is in the center of the diamond. If either runner steals, that's a 60 foot throw (or less on the small field) to make an out. Stealing when F2 comes out to give the play is a very high risk play that will likely result in an out for the defense. If we call time there, we take away that opportunity to make that out...as unlikely as it is that someone would run.

Ball four to the batter and now coach wants to come out and have a mound visit so, he is asking for time? Sure, no problem...as soon as B/R gets to 1B and any other runners settle at their bases.

Nuanced...granular...everybody thinks umpires are being jerks when we either don't grant time or we don't grant time "instantly". Time is out and the ball is dead when the umpire calls time...NOT when a coach or player says, "Time...".

~Dawg

Only thing I disagree with is not calling time right away for a coach to come out for a visit (yes, I recognize that FED doesn't allow it... another thing they do that sucks). There is nothing going on, so why not call time? That way the coach doesn't have to wait to come out.

[SeeingEyeDog]

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

(If NFHS makes the proposed change, I will start granting the request for time for the catcher to give signals, as it will count as a conference.)

My bluest of blue dudes...I LUV THIS!

@Biscuit, sorry...75% of the games I work are FED. All other rule sets, yes...let's call time for that mound visit as soon as we have the action settled. Sooner we call time there, sooner the coach gets to the mound, sooner we can run them off and get the game going again!

As I said, brothers...nuanced and granular...

~Dawg

[grayhawk]

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

(If NFHS makes the proposed change, I will start granting the request for time for the catcher to give signals, as it will count as a conference.)

What? A proposed rule change makes catchers giving signals a defensive conference?

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, grayhawk said:

What? A proposed rule change makes catchers giving signals a defensive conference?

Asking for time to communicate is a conference.  It does not have to be up close and personal and it does not have to be verbal.

I thought somebody posted the list of proposals here … am I crazy?  I mean, yes, but …

[grayhawk]

45 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Asking for time to communicate is a conference.  It does not have to be up close and personal and it does not have to be verbal.

I thought somebody posted the list of proposals here … am I crazy?  I mean, yes, but …

I didn't pay it much attention. I would assume that if they ask for time to give signs (a nasty habit), the proper response would be, "Do you want to use one of your 6 conferences?" the answer to which would likely be, "no." I would hope it wouldn't take more than 1/4 of the season for them to clue in about it so they stop asking for time which they shouldn't have ever been doing in the first place.

[The Man in Blue]

You could do that … or …

[Side Retired]

Do'nt know if its ever going to make total sense. It seems more like every game is a whole different ball of wax. What was called in a that game isn't necessarily gonna be called in this one. It's like some same plays get different calls and there's a way to justify calls either way.

[grayhawk]

7 hours ago, Side Retired said:

Do'nt know if its ever going to make total sense. It seems more like every game is a whole different ball of wax. What was called in a that game isn't necessarily gonna be called in this one. It's like some same plays get different calls and there's a way to justify calls either way.

I get college infielders asking for time to throw the ball back to the pitcher. I can only assume they do this because some umpires grant it. I do not.

One thing is for certain. This 14 year old player is going to (a) learn to walk it up the base, and (b) make sure he knows time has been granted before breaking contact with the base. Valuable lesson.

[Velho]

20 hours ago, Side Retired said:

Do'nt know if its ever going to make total sense. It seems more like every game is a whole different ball of wax. What was called in a that game isn't necessarily gonna be called in this one. It's like some same plays get different calls and there's a way to justify calls either way.

It depends on your perspective.

Officiating is judgmental, and not just in baseball, see what is and isn't called a foul in any youth basketball game for example. It seems cut and dry from the sidelines, but it's not.

Further, the scenario you raise is judgmental by rule. And, it's so far down the list of things an umpire needs to know, that it's not given more than a passing mention at umpire clinics (Pro school, maybe, I haven't gone. But it got a minute, if that, at the 7 day Little League school I went to and we certainly don't cover it at the 4 hour trainings I instruct at every year).

Lastly, over 5 million kids ages 6-17 play baseball (second to basketball at 7.3 million). That's a lot of games to cover, which requires a lot of officials, and the level of training varies widely.

I guess it just comes down to our expectations. If the kids played perfectly it would be easier for the umpire to be prefect. But neither of those things are going to happen. Great coaches prepare their teams for that fact. Good coaches teach the lessons learned. Worse case, kids learn that life doesn't always go your way and there are things outside your control but, being mindful and prepared can tilt the odds in your favor - which is the real reason for youth sports.

Hopefully, with that perspective, the game won't seem so confounding.

[beerguy55]

I'll say the same thing about timeouts I say when people ask other questions about certain baseball rules related to where your feet are (rather than the ball).

This is not football.

Stop bringing a football frame of reference to baseball.

 

Also - stop bringing the MLB you see on TV to your local amateur setting. Pro baseball has most of the same rules, but is managed in an entirely different way, to a different flow...not only for TV viewing, but simply for professionals working with professionals.  It's in many ways more informal, and it can be, because everyone knows what's going on. 

 

 

[Velho]

50 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Pro baseball has most of the same rules, but is managed in an entirely different way, to a different flow...not only for TV viewing, but simply for professionals working with professionals.  It's in many ways more informal, and it can be, because everyone knows what's going on. 

and it's by mutual agreement by those sophisticated teams to apply it equally for both sides.

Two teams that don't know any better /  have lost the plot / apply a hypocritical inconsistent viewpoint leads to this angst.