Balk with runner stealing

[Guest Casey]

Runners on 1st and 2nd. 

Runner on 2nd takes off to steal 3rd. In the process of the move to pickoff, the pitcher balks. 

Runner is safe at 3rd, pitcher has balked...

Is the runner awarded home on the balk?

This is Little League Juniors (13-14 year old).

I can't find this anywhere...but I don't know what to look for. Thanks!

[Guest Casey]

I should have said - in the move to throw out the runner at 3rd, the pitcher balks

[noumpere]

The balk award is on base from the time the motion started -- not "safe on the play plus a base on the balk" -- so R2 advances to third and R1 is awarded first second.

[RBIbaseball]

20 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The balk award is on base from the time the motion started -- not "safe on the play plus a base on the balk" -- so R2 advances to third and R1 is awarded second.

Wanted to chime in to proactively clarify for OP:

1. Don't be confused, @noumpere meant to say R1 is awarded second base.

2. When he says "motion started" he is talking about the pitcher starting his pickoff throw (the start of the balk motion). A balk results in an award of ONE base to all baserunners - determined by their position at that "motion started" moment.

[Guest Casey]

Thank you so much @noumpereand @RBIbaseball

 

Followup:

This happened in our championship playoff game. Home was awarded - this was in our favor.

So - apparently that was an incorrect call. As a coach, I concede this.

Protesting the game - Opposing team coach argued the call, but the umpires at home and in the field upheld the call (home plate ump is a very good ump, has been all season...very fair). The coach re-entered his dugout, and allowed his pitcher to continue pitching. Two pitches were thrown, striking out my batter for the third out. Their team exited the field to the dugout, we fielded our team, my pitcher and catcher were warming up.

Opposing coach came out of the dugout and threatened to walk his team off the field if the ump didn't reverse the call and reset play. The umpire informed him that it would be a forfeit. The coach then said that they were going to play under protest. The umpire informed him that play had already proceeded, and invited him to return to the dugout, which he would not. Finally, we indicated to the umpire that we felt the game was being delayed by an argument about a play that had already been ruled on and that their coach had already allowed play to proceed. Their coach finally reentered the dugout and play proceeded with our team ultimately winning 7-6. 

I'm not saying it's a great way to win, but I can say that we proceeded in the game in good faith on the ruling of the umpire. In any case, we've lost games on bad calls. It happens.

The League is considering the protest. I've submitted that under rule 4.19 (c) (1), the protest is invalid, as the coach did not immediately indicate he was protesting the game and instead allowed play to continue. As I read the rule, the moment another pitch is thrown you've lost the ability to protest a game due to that particular disputed call. Is that correct?

If we have to replay from the moment of dispute, we certainly will. With the abuse this particular coach has hurled at other coaches and umpires all season, I'd really like to see him lose! But, really, it's about the kids, so my feelings about him don't matter.

Thanks for entertaining my long winded question.

Casey

[Velho]

Casey, thanks for posting and thinking about the situation seeking the right answer. It's apparent to care about the game (otherwise you wouldn't have given this a second thought).

Curiosity question (and not picking on you):

44 minutes ago, Guest Casey said:

So - apparently that was an incorrect call. As a coach, I concede this.

If this in retrospect having researched and thought on it? Or was this your conclusion in the moment? It's understandable that you'd let it play out regardless but I'm just curious.

[Catch18]

It would be completely improper to entertain the protest. But, I’ve seen Boards do such things. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[The Man in Blue]

[MT73]

Doesn’t R1 get 2nd base?

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Doesn’t R1 get 2nd base?

Have you perused the whole thread?

[Lou B]

Simply bring the rulebook to the Protest Committee and read them the part that says the Protest must be made before the next pitch/play.  It wasn't so the Protest is invalid.

[Guest Casey]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

If this in retrospect having researched and thought on it? Or was this your conclusion in the moment? It's understandable that you'd let it play out regardless but I'm just curious.

@VelhoIn the moment, I genuinely believed the call was correct. I believed that until I came here. I always have the rulebook on my phone and am familiar with most rules that most commonly arise. I try really hard to trust the umpire - especially the experienced umpires we have - even when I disagree with a call that is against us. If I know the rulebook is contrary, I bring it to the umpire in the moment and we have a conversation about it. Or, I'll concede the call and talk to the umpire about it between innings and clarify going forward.

I thought I had read somewhere that if the runner had already taken the base, that they would be awarded the next one. If I'm wrong, I'm ok conceding that point.

In the moment of the game, I think that regardless of how I felt about the call, whether it was right or wrong, it isn't my job to argue the point for the other team. They have to make their own case, and it isn't my job to help them make that case, or to remind them that if a protest is to be made that it has to be done before the next pitch. 

It's happened to us many many times. It's a part of the game. Umpires mostly get things right, sometimes get them wrong, and I respect them for going out and doing a hard and in many ways thankless job.

I'm not sure if our league is going to have a "hearing." The rule I read in 4.19 is that the President, Player Agent, Umpire in Chief, and another non-coach/manager, need to consult on the matter and make a decision. I'm not sure they're doing this. I think the President and Vice President are just trying to manage the drama. I'm not really sure. But, I'm frustrated at this point because they are looking for an "impartial witness" to the events who can give an account. But - I thought that's what the umpire was. I think it really should come down to his call about the protest. It's a bit maddening that the league would entertain this.

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, Guest Casey said:

I thought I had read somewhere that if the runner had already taken the base, that they would be awarded the next one. If I'm wrong, I'm ok conceding that point.

 

If the runner has advanced before the TOP (or start of any motion), then that "advance" base is used for awards, or the base the runner returns to if the ball is batted foul....

That's not what happened in your play, as you describe it.

[beerguy55]

10 minutes ago, Guest Casey said:

But, I'm frustrated at this point because they are looking for an "impartial witness" to the events who can give an account. But - I thought that's what the umpire was

If the umpire is the subject of the protest - either because he violated a rule, or violated a procedure, then he's not an impartial witness...he's defending himself, to some degree.

What if the coach is saying he did protest in the proper time?   Then you have coach saying "I protested in time" and ump saying "he didn't protest in time", and you need an impartial witness...What if he is actually saying he specifically mentioned protest during the first argument, and was ignored?  What if he's suggesting that his original argument/dispute of the rule should have constituted a protest, implicitly?   I doubt I'd agree there, but there's enough to unpack there that I can see someone considering the notion that he was obviously disputing a rule...and the resources were (should have been?) in place, at a championship game, to quickly validate the on field ruling.

 

[Guest Casey]

@noumpere- yes, I see that. Thank you all for helping clarify.

 

@beerguy55that makes sense. I see what you’re saying here. I think we actually have video. But - I don’t think anyone at a little League game is impartial!!! Everyone at that game was on a side!

 

We’re waiting to see what the league decides. Board members are meeting with the umpire today to make a decision.

[Velho]

Thanks Casey. Hopefully it gets cleared up and you get back on the field soon.

[LRZ]

Although I was never involved in a protest, I would not consider myself "the subject of the protest," nor would I feel compelled to defend my ruling. I'd simply explain what happened, from my perspective, as impartially as humanly possible, and the basis for my ruling. If I got a rule wrong, I'd welcome the correction. That is, I'm not on anyone's side.

[Guest Casey]

For the resolution - I think the league handled it well. The President pulled Board members not connected in any way to the two teams, no kids in Juniors…who didn’t know what had happened in the game or even that Juniors games were still being played. They read a letter from me, arguing the protest was invalid based on rule 4.19, a letter from the opposing coach, and a letter from the umpire. 
 

The committee voted unanimously that our team had won and the protest failed. I have not heard their reasoning.

 

On a related note - the opposing coach has been an obnoxious thorn in everyone’s side all season. He’s been verbally abusive to kids, other coaches, every umpire in the league, the president, board members, parents…literally no one likes him. When he got news that he’d lost the appeal, he started yelling and cursing at the president. I think that on a certain level, when you act like that and no one likes you because of your behavior, people probably aren’t going out of their way to be sympathetic to your claims. What’s sad about it is that it’s the kids on the team losing out by having an obnoxious coach.

 

Our team moves on to TOC. But I just heard they may cancel the tournament…no one wants to umpire. The way I’ve seen umpires treated this season, I genuinely don’t blame them. I hope we get to play though.

 

Thanks everyone for your time. I appreciate your expertise and your help.

 

Casey

[Velho]

8 hours ago, Guest Casey said:

When he got news that he’d lost the appeal, he started yelling and cursing at the president. I think that on a certain level, when you act like that and no one likes you because of your behavior, people probably aren’t going out of their way to be sympathetic to your claims.

They should never let him coach again. I'd bet this is a problem they didn't solve 5+ years ago (or maybe another league did if he's new to yours).

[ErichKeane]

7 hours ago, Guest Casey said:

For the resolution - I think the league handled it well. The President pulled Board members not connected in any way to the two teams, no kids in Juniors…who didn’t know what had happened in the game or even that Juniors games were still being played. They read a letter from me, arguing the protest was invalid based on rule 4.19, a letter from the opposing coach, and a letter from the umpire. 
 

The committee voted unanimously that our team had won and the protest failed. I have not heard their reasoning.

 

On a related note - the opposing coach has been an obnoxious thorn in everyone’s side all season. He’s been verbally abusive to kids, other coaches, every umpire in the league, the president, board members, parents…literally no one likes him. When he got news that he’d lost the appeal, he started yelling and cursing at the president. I think that on a certain level, when you act like that and no one likes you because of your behavior, people probably aren’t going out of their way to be sympathetic to your claims. What’s sad about it is that it’s the kids on the team losing out by having an obnoxious coach.

 

Our team moves on to TOC. But I just heard they may cancel the tournament…no one wants to umpire. The way I’ve seen umpires treated this season, I genuinely don’t blame them. I hope we get to play though.

 

Thanks everyone for your time. I appreciate your expertise and your help.

 

Casey

I presume the timeliness of the protest was the reason.  It sounded from everything else that it was otherwise the 'wrong' call. 

As far as dealing with coaches like that: That is definitely the worst experience as an ump I've had so far.  Actually, the WORST part is when they manage to JUST walk the line to not get tossed, but are still a PITA.  That said, yelling/cursing like that would be off-my-field right away, and I would think the president would think the same.

Good luck in your tourney, and I hope it happens!  LL not paying umps perhaps makes this level of abuse harder to take, but hopefully they can talk someone into it (and they end up getting to be treated WELL during the game!).

[JonnyCat]

8 hours ago, Guest Casey said:

On a related note - the opposing coach has been an obnoxious thorn in everyone’s side all season. He’s been verbally abusive to kids, other coaches, every umpire in the league, the president, board members, parents…literally no one likes him.

This is one of the big problems, not only in baseball, but all of youth sports. Was this behavior tolerated all season? It shouldn't be.

1. How many times was this coach ejected? I'm willing to bet there was plenty of times he should have been dumped but wasn't. 

2. Was he ever reprimanded or spoken to by the league president or any of the BOD? Why was this behavior tolerated all season? Someone should have done something early on. Complacency is something a BOD shouldn't have.

3. Was he a new coach, or has he been with the league for a while? Does he have a history of poor behavior? If so, why is he coaching in your league?

I was once, a number of years ago, league president for 5 years. It's uncomfortable to reprimand or remove a coach, but sometimes it must be done. If your league has a culture of letting this behavior go, then it will continue to breed. That coaches behavior is the number one reason there is a shortage of sports officials. 

[Guest Casey]

Well, after everything, with the league setting up a system for determining the final outcome and that committee deciding in our favor…we received a call from the league president today that…some other mysterious process that he won’t be clear about has decided we have to play. If we don’t, we forfeit.

 

it’s horrible all the way around, who knows what backend conversations/shouting or whatever happened on whatever level, but in the end it sounds to me like the league once again gave in to this manipulative and abusive coach. 
 

The worst part is for our kids -

told we won the game, given trophies (ps - when our trophies were being given out, opposing coach stood behind our kids shouting at them “you better be ready to give those back because they ain’t yours)

then told our win is under protest

then told we win..again- announce to kids at practice last night

then coaches told this morning regardless of what we told you last night it’s under reconsideration

then coaches told no, decision stands

then told if we don’t play we forfeit

I was of a mind to forfeit in protest of the league’s absolute mishandling of the situation. All my parents are furious. Half wanted to walk away. But they said ask the kids. Kids are mad - can’t stand that coach - but want to play.

We’ll have umpires from District, which I’m glad for. But I’m legit worried about violence…the other night their parents were threatening the umpire pretty seriously. I can’t imagine what tomorrow will look like, regardless of who wins.

my other coach is ditching the league. He won’t ever coach here again. My kid is aging out…off to high school. But this whole incident has seriously taken a game he absolutely loves and turned his heart inside out.

im considering playing under protest from the beginning, on the grounds that this game is being played as a result of a process that happened in secret and not according to the rulebook, acknowledging that nothing will ever be done about it, but at least a statement of no confidence in our president and board. I don’t know. 
 

im hoping we win tomorrow - but some kids are hyped to beat them again, while some kids are disheartened. One asked me / if that coach shouted at us getting trophies when we won, what will he say to us if we lose?

 

we just need to win.

not that you all need to know this drama. I just thought I’d give you the rest of the story. Thanks everyone for your help.

[mark38090]

This is why youth sports is failing. These types of personalities are tainting the experience for the kids and they in turn go to some other form of activity. 

[Tborze]

4 hours ago, Guest Casey said:

Well, after everything, with the league setting up a system for determining the final outcome and that committee deciding in our favor…we received a call from the league president today that…some other mysterious process that he won’t be clear about has decided we have to play. If we don’t, we forfeit.

 

it’s horrible all the way around, who knows what backend conversations/shouting or whatever happened on whatever level, but in the end it sounds to me like the league once again gave in to this manipulative and abusive coach. 
 

The worst part is for our kids -

told we won the game, given trophies (ps - when our trophies were being given out, opposing coach stood behind our kids shouting at them “you better be ready to give those back because they ain’t yours)

then told our win is under protest

then told we win..again- announce to kids at practice last night

then coaches told this morning regardless of what we told you last night it’s under reconsideration

then coaches told no, decision stands

then told if we don’t play we forfeit

I was of a mind to forfeit in protest of the league’s absolute mishandling of the situation. All my parents are furious. Half wanted to walk away. But they said ask the kids. Kids are mad - can’t stand that coach - but want to play.

We’ll have umpires from District, which I’m glad for. But I’m legit worried about violence…the other night their parents were threatening the umpire pretty seriously. I can’t imagine what tomorrow will look like, regardless of who wins.

my other coach is ditching the league. He won’t ever coach here again. My kid is aging out…off to high school. But this whole incident has seriously taken a game he absolutely loves and turned his heart inside out.

im considering playing under protest from the beginning, on the grounds that this game is being played as a result of a process that happened in secret and not according to the rulebook, acknowledging that nothing will ever be done about it, but at least a statement of no confidence in our president and board. I don’t know. 
 

im hoping we win tomorrow - but some kids are hyped to beat them again, while some kids are disheartened. One asked me / if that coach shouted at us getting trophies when we won, what will he say to us if we lose?

 

we just need to win.

not that you all need to know this drama. I just thought I’d give you the rest of the story. Thanks everyone for your help.

Is there a protest fee?  If not, protest before the game starts.  If so, don’t let them steal your money too!

 I would definitely have someone recording from every angle and every minute until you leave.  

Does this coach have a kid playing?  If so, I’ll just say, he wouldn’t be getting any hits.  Not literally anyway;)

Let us know the outcome!  
GOOD LUCK!  

PS: Let your kids know, no matter the outcome, they’ve already won!!  But, let’s go kick their azz again!  

 

[beerguy55]

8 hours ago, Guest Casey said:

Well, after everything, with the league setting up a system for determining the final outcome and that committee deciding in our favor…we received a call from the league president today that…some other mysterious process that he won’t be clear about has decided we have to play. If we don’t, we forfeit.

 

it’s horrible all the way around, who knows what backend conversations/shouting or whatever happened on whatever level, but in the end it sounds to me like the league once again gave in to this manipulative and abusive coach. 
 

The worst part is for our kids -

told we won the game, given trophies (ps - when our trophies were being given out, opposing coach stood behind our kids shouting at them “you better be ready to give those back because they ain’t yours)

then told our win is under protest

then told we win..again- announce to kids at practice last night

then coaches told this morning regardless of what we told you last night it’s under reconsideration

then coaches told no, decision stands

then told if we don’t play we forfeit

I was of a mind to forfeit in protest of the league’s absolute mishandling of the situation. All my parents are furious. Half wanted to walk away. But they said ask the kids. Kids are mad - can’t stand that coach - but want to play.

We’ll have umpires from District, which I’m glad for. But I’m legit worried about violence…the other night their parents were threatening the umpire pretty seriously. I can’t imagine what tomorrow will look like, regardless of who wins.

my other coach is ditching the league. He won’t ever coach here again. My kid is aging out…off to high school. But this whole incident has seriously taken a game he absolutely loves and turned his heart inside out.

im considering playing under protest from the beginning, on the grounds that this game is being played as a result of a process that happened in secret and not according to the rulebook, acknowledging that nothing will ever be done about it, but at least a statement of no confidence in our president and board. I don’t know. 
 

im hoping we win tomorrow - but some kids are hyped to beat them again, while some kids are disheartened. One asked me / if that coach shouted at us getting trophies when we won, what will he say to us if we lose?

 

we just need to win.

not that you all need to know this drama. I just thought I’d give you the rest of the story. Thanks everyone for your help.

Then argue this one point - and protest otherwise...the game needs to be played starting at the exact time the correct balk call should have been made.  Because, if it was a valid protest, that is the point the protest was made.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, with two out, with the batter still at the plate (the one who struck out to end the inning when the kafuffle started) with whatever count he had at the time of the balk.

Otherwise, the only reasonable starting point is in extra innings...if they're going to rule that the "kid would have struck out anyway, so let's just undo the run and start the next inning"...well then "the game would have ended 6-6 anyway, so let's start in extra innings".

Unless you have to replay the whole game.

As stated...have people recording everything, to capture any abuse that comes from their parents or coaches (and keep your parents in line).

The coach may be a horse's ass, but in the end he was defending his players against a perceived injustice.  As you said, you don't want to win on a technicality.  Losing on a technicality is 1000 times worse.

My suspicion is this coach threatened to sue, or go to the press, or something similar, and someone caved.   In the end, it's the "right" call...with extremely poor execution.  I'm not interested in the technicality of the timing.  Sure, it's defensible...but it's a legal response...and that is likely what led to a legal rebuttal.  It's what happens when you start acting like lawyers in court and abandon common sense and fair play when it comes to making the right decision about a game being played by pre-teens.

  It was handled poorly from almost the beginning, and that's the biggest problem here.   (you might argue they handled poorly long before that when they continued to let this coach operate for years on end) 

 They got the right answer, but didn't show their work properly.  This could have been solved on site at game time...at the point he's coming out to argue a second time and trying to protest, the proper sources should have been at, or near, that game to rule immediately, and the umpires should have called them in...and I'm willing to bet at that exact moment they would have rolled it back, regardless of the technical issue of the timing of the "protest".  Whether you agree or not, I can see a coach arguing that, in their mind, they were "protesting" the first time they argued the rule.  In fact, there's no reason to argue a rule at all..."Coach, that's the rule, if you want to protest, speak now or forever hold your peace; otherwise, let's play."

ESPECIALLY in such a setting - some level of champion final is going to/should have league officials present.   And especially if this coach has the reputation you say he has.

 

[BLWizzRanger]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:19 PM, The Man in Blue said:

In this case..... yes, this is how it worked.