play at the plate

[Umpire942]

NFHS , varsity division leader game, runner on second, batter hits a single. 1 out.

relay comes in.

F2 is standing not only in front of the plate but about batters box if not maybe more forward and receives throw, at the exact moment the runner collides with catcher.

Catcher falls back, does not drop the ball.  The only "lane" the runner had was to go around the catcher which i deemed unfair.

 

(if the runner slid, he would have no chance at the plate and would be INT, but thats not what happened, and your also not required to slide, just would have made the call i made more obvious)

I called INT, even though the runner collided with catcher and safe.

 

Coach wanted Malicious interference (no way)

 

But it is possible if it was a collision play, and the catcher had the ball, I could have rulled out, on the collision play.  But the catchers position, made me judge INT

 

Partner had no input, didnt see play, I was only going to him to see if he believes it was malicious contact. and that only

 

Agree? thoughts on this crazy play at the plate?  I stood with my call, and all the arguments, of the home crowd, and coach telling me i can overturn my call.  Happened in 2nd inning had to get allot of balls and strikes right to stop hearing the winning.

[Replacematt]

Under what rule do you have INT?

[Umpire942]

 

22 minutes ago, Matt said:

Under what rule do you have INT?

he was standing in front of the batters box up the line without the ball the entire time?, and we are of course talking about obs

found this

 

If the catcher is blocking the plate without possession of the ball and the runner makes contact with the catcher before touching the plate, obstruction should be called and the runner is awarded home plate. This would be the ruling even if the runner pushes the catcher out of the base path, as specified in the NFHS casebook. If the runner’s push was malicious, however, he would be ejected and the run would not count

[Richvee]

Offense interferes. Defense obstructs. Interference would be an out. If F2 was parked in the runner’s path to the plate without the ball and the the runner needed to alter is path to the plate, that’s Obstruction. Runner safe. If that runner saw F2 in his path and made no effort to avoid him and trucked him, I’ve got a strong hunch MC runner out and EJ would he the proper call. Have to see it. 

[Umpire942]

12 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Offense interferes. Defense obstructs. Interference would be an out. If F2 was parked in the runner’s path to the plate without the ball and the the runner needed to alter is path to the plate, that’s Obstruction. Runner safe. If that runner saw F2 in his path and made no effort to avoid him and trucked him, I’ve got a strong hunch MC runner out and EJ would he the proper call. Have to see it. 

thast why im posting here.  the runner did not truck him, he actually slowed down when i took the mental picture, but they did contact eachother at the same time the ball arrived and at the same time the ball arrived runner collides with runner.

The issue i personally have, is as a runner, you just want to get to A-B at play to plate.  AS a player , i never looked at a catcher and said, wow hes blocking, let me go around him, possibly get called out due to the longer path, hoping the umpire gets it right

[Velho]

15 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

the runner did not truck him, he actually slowed down when i took the mental picture, but they did contact eachother at the same time the ball arrived and at the same time the ball arrived runner collides with runner.

OBS. You made the right call.

16 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

AS a player , i never looked at a catcher and said, wow hes blocking, let me go around him, possibly get called out due to the longer path, hoping the umpire gets it right

I hear you. This is now how the rules are set up.

[UMP45]

50 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

thast why im posting here.  the runner did not truck him, he actually slowed down when i took the mental picture, but they did contact eachother at the same time the ball arrived and at the same time the ball arrived runner collides with runner.

The issue i personally have, is as a runner, you just want to get to A-B at play to plate.  AS a player , i never looked at a catcher and said, wow hes blocking, let me go around him, possibly get called out due to the longer path, hoping the umpire gets it right

Sounds like to me you haven't flipped the switch from player to umpire. Coach, player, umpire. If you combine any of the three it will go to s@#t.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Umpire942 said:

 

he was standing in front of the batters box up the line without the ball the entire time?, and we are of course talking about obs

found this

 

If the catcher is blocking the plate without possession of the ball and the runner makes contact with the catcher before touching the plate, obstruction should be called and the runner is awarded home plate. This would be the ruling even if the runner pushes the catcher out of the base path, as specified in the NFHS casebook. If the runner’s push was malicious, however, he would be ejected and the run would not count

You should not have "found this", you should have known, been trained that this is a rule, as is a few others that apply to your play. Another one you might find as, I'm guessing, you first peruse the rule book, would be the runner not legally attempting to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him. Of course timing is at issue here but a fielder with the ball can not be guilty of obstruction. But the outfit that put you on the field can be guilty of not preparing you. Did you find your cite in the rulebook they gave you. If so, 3 pages every BM will do you good but still leave some confusion that UE can clear up or your outfit should be able to also.

[Kevin_K]

12 hours ago, Umpire942 said:

thast why im posting here.  the runner did not truck him, he actually slowed down when i took the mental picture, but they did contact eachother at the same time the ball arrived and at the same time the ball arrived runner collides with runner.

The issue i personally have, is as a runner, you just want to get to A-B at play to plate.  AS a player , i never looked at a catcher and said, wow hes blocking, let me go around him, possibly get called out due to the longer path, hoping the umpire gets it right

If the runner's path is altered by a fielder who is not in possession of the ball, obstruction would be the proper ruling. Based on the words provided, the runner altered his route to the plate by slowing down because F2 was in front of the plate awaiting the ball. Had F2 not been blocking the path to the plate the runner would likely have arrived prior to the ball.

The way this play has been presented I would probably have obstruction on F2 in a game played under Fed rules.

[Senor Azul]

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 8.3.2 Situation C:  F2 is in the path between third base and home plate while waiting to receive a thrown ball. R3 advances from third and runs into the catcher, after which R3 is tagged out. RULING:  Obstruction. F2 cannot be in the base path without the ball in his possession, nor can he be in the base path waiting for a ball to arrive without giving the runner some access to home plate.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 2.22.1 Situation C:  A runner is advancing to score when F7 throws home. F2 completely blocks home plate with his lower leg/knee while (a) in possession of the ball or (b) while juggling and attempting to secure the ball or (c) before the ball has reached F2. RULING:  Legal in (a); obstruction in (b) and (c) if the catcher denied access to home plate prior to possessing the ball.

[noumpere]

13 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You should not have "found this", you should have known, been trained that this is a rule,

More important, imo,  is to know the difference between INT and OBS, especially for an umpire (it would be good for players and coaches and fans and announcers to know that difference, but one step at at time).

 

(and I say that not meaning to "pile on" to the OP -- we all need to start somewhere and I am grateful for all who start and continue this avocation)

[maven]

18 hours ago, Umpire942 said:

AS a player , i never looked at a catcher and said, wow hes blocking, let me go around him, possibly get called out due to the longer path, hoping the umpire gets it right

That's exactly how runners should be coached. Failure to avoid (a stationary) F2 makes the runner liable for MC.

I put that burden of avoiding contact on the runner. He's got F2 in front of him and nothing better to look at. F2 is looking for the ball and can't read the runner's path.

When I was teaching our class, I made a point of this safety rule: we want runners to avoid catchers, even those who are guilty of OBS. If we DON'T call the OBS, we're giving catchers a huge advantage in plays at the plate.

If F2 is moving to field the throw and drifts into the runner's path, that collision is nothing but a train wreck (but possibly still OBS, depending on when F2 gets the ball).

All that said, I can't determine from your description whether OBS or MC is the better call here. It's probably not nothing, because the runner was affected by F2's position before the ball arrived. That puts OBS on the table.

But if the runner deviated into F2, then I've got MC, which supersedes OBS by rule.

Definitely need to be at 3BLX to read all this. 

[Umpire942]

It’s a tough call at full speed. Coach was extremely upset when I immediately called obs.

although catcher was blocking, and did receive the ball, and held the ball as far up as he was .  
 

off topic a bit coach wants me to change my call, I told him I’ll talk to my partner who gave all his attention to the touch at first base and said I saw nothing and jogged away. 
 

So even if I feel I made a mistake, changing make call would have had the other side of the stadium on my back.  I just couldn’t do it.  Only silver lining is as much of a spectacle was made kept cool.

I heard “terrible call go home”  and “you got it right blue” 

 in the end have to expect the unexpected , and my MC bar is now more in favor for the catcher 

 

 

 

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, Umpire942 said:

It’s a tough call at full speed. Coach was extremely upset when I immediately called obs.

although catcher was blocking, and did receive the ball, and held the ball as far up as he was .  
 

off topic a bit coach wants me to change my call, I told him I’ll talk to my partner who gave all his attention to the touch at first base and said I saw nothing and jogged away. 
 

So even if I feel I made a mistake, changing make call would have had the other side of the stadium on my back.  I just couldn’t do it.  Only silver lining is as much of a spectacle was made kept cool.

I heard “terrible call go home”  and “you got it right blue” 

 in the end have to expect the unexpected , and my MC bar is now more in favor for the catcher 

 

 

 

This is not a play where you can get help regarding OBS. 

[Umpire942]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

This is not a play where you can get help regarding OBS. 

I wasn’t looking for help on obs, as that’s what I already called, I was looking for help even though I saw obstruction was the continued contact malicious contact

[beerguy55]

On 4/8/2022 at 6:51 PM, Umpire942 said:

The issue i personally have, is as a runner, you just want to get to A-B at play to plate.  AS a player , i never looked at a catcher and said, wow hes blocking, let me go around him, possibly get called out due to the longer path, hoping the umpire gets it right

This is exactly what you should be doing...coming from a former competitive player, and a club coach.

You have to trust the umpire to get it right.

And if you don't...really?  Your decision and approach is to take the path that most risks injury to you, the catcher, or both?  For a F*#King run?  In an amateur ball game?  Really?

Get that out of your head now...and get it out of the head of any player or coach you know.

And, from experience, if you deviate your path around the catcher, 9 out of 10 umps get it right...the other one...well, he's not getting much else right either so this play is the least of your worries.

Most umps, if they see the collision, they're blaming the runner, especially if F2 was parked, as opposed to a last second move.

 

[Catch18]

I EJ’d a kid this weekend for the very same. No OBS, kid was out by 5-6 full steps. Put both arms up and laid out the catcher. Simple call.

Coaches were up in arms b/c I ran him. “He can’t slide, what’s he supposed to do?” Coach couldn’t get it in his head plowing the catcher isn’t an approved alternative.

[beerguy55]

29 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

I EJ’d a kid this weekend for the very same. No OBS, kid was out by 5-6 full steps. Put both arms up and laid out the catcher. Simple call.

Coaches were up in arms b/c I ran him. “He can’t slide, what’s he supposed to do?” Coach couldn’t get it in his head plowing the catcher isn’t an approved alternative.

Well, coach, maybe you shouldn't have sent him...

[mac266]

Please, please, please, if you're going to umpire, know the difference between obstruction and interference.

[Catch18]

Please, please, please, if you're going to umpire, know the difference between obstruction and interference.

I guess this is mine??

Ok…..I was just letting you guys know I didn’t have OBS, i.e., the catcher deciding to block w/o the ball and the runner deciding to truck him. I can assure you the diff. betwixt ONS & INT.

[mac266]

22 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

I guess this is mine??

Ok…..I was just letting you guys know I didn’t have OBS, i.e., the catcher deciding to block w/o the ball and the runner deciding to truck him. I can assure you the diff. betwixt ONS & INT.

No, it's for the OP.  He called it INT in his post and then explained OBS.

[aaluck]

On 4/11/2022 at 2:29 PM, beerguy55 said:

And if you don't...really?  Your decision and approach is to take the path that most risks injury to you, the catcher, or both?  For a F*#King run?  In an amateur ball game?  Really?

Love your optimism and approach.  Unfortunately, you are one in a hundred.  To answer your question.... Yes, these crazy coaches and parents want to win at all costs, including blowing up a catcher.  And to make matters worse they have not even opened the rule book--let a lone read a couple of pages.

Last night, HS area game for playoff position.  I'm with an older guy (and that's saying something with me at 54, great umpire) that cannot move 'quick' to say the least. Bases loaded, he gets pounded by line drive in his knee, which deflects off him and hits R2.  We stop play, trainer comes and checks on him, award bases.  Here we go..... defensive coach wants R2 out for being hit on the deflection of my partner.  Offensive coach wants a 'two base award from time of pitch', his exact words taken directly from the 'rulebook'--that according to both of them my partner and I need to read.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

that according to both of them my partner and I need to read.

If there’s one thing  a coach can say that takes all I have to keep from losing it on a clueless coach is “ you need to learn/ read the rules). 

[LRZ]

Personal/profane/persistent. I'd say "You need to learn/read the rules" qualifies as "personal." I might not toss the coach, but his leash just got very short for the rest of the game.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

Here we go..... defensive coach wants R2 out for being hit on the deflection of my partner.  Offensive coach wants a 'two base award from time of pitch', his exact words taken directly from the 'rulebook'--that according to both of them my partner and I need to read.

If I had been you – as in, not the Umpire that got hit by the batted ball – I would have used my snappy, snarky logic and replied, "You guys each have your own rulebooks?! Because you both can't be right on this!" 

Really! Look at this situation as it paints itself... 

The defensive coach wants R2 to be Out, based on his being touched by a batted ball. He'd be (partly) right, except that the batted ball hit an Umpire first, which immediately kills it. Where the ball goes after hitting the Umpire, in this situation, is irrelevant. The Runner cannot be liable / at peril of being ruled Out on a batted ball that first touches an Umpire or any fielder. That's in the rulebook... Coach. 

The offensive coach wants a 2-base award? "Well coach, that other coach claims that the rulebook y'all (yes, I'm appropriating a southern term) want us (umpires) to read that your Runner is / should be Out. Can't be both! Okay, so... you're claiming that hitting an Umpire with a batted ball is the same as a Ground Rule (Double)? 🤔 Did we cover that in the ground rules at the plate meeting? Nope, so it's not a Ground Rule... lodged batted ball? Can't be lodged, the ball clearly didn't get lodged, since it hit your Runner after hitting my partner (the umpire). Soooo... confused as to what the rulebook says? Tell ya what, I know what the rulebook states, and it is that the ball is Dead upon touching the Umpire. Your BR is / shall be placed (I know the formal term is "awarded", but the use of "placed" in this discussion is chosen for a reason) at 1B, therefore, all other Runners are forced to advance one base each. R3 scores, no Outs (called or additional)... has my partner regained his feet yet?... okay, back to baseball."

[aaluck]

20 minutes ago, MadMax said:

"You guys each have your own rulebooks?! Because you both can't be right on this!" 

Love it.  They both were calling the assignor 'immediately after the game'.  Our assignor has ZERO tolerance for stupidity.... Im sure that didn't go well for them and thats good enough for me.