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Blown coverage??

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Either PU or BU can have this depending on the mechanics being used and what is discussed at pre-game.  For me, I prefer giving it to BU ("If the batted ball doesn't leave the infield, PU doesn't leave the plate" -- NOT meant to be taken literally, but to guide the discussion)

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8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Either PU or BU can have this depending on the mechanics being used and what is discussed at pre-game.  For me, I prefer giving it to BU ("If the batted ball doesn't leave the infield, PU doesn't leave the plate" -- NOT meant to be taken literally, but to guide the discussion)

Me too. And this is an excellent reason for BU not to overcommit to 1B and kill his angle for the play at 3B.

PU has responsibilities for helping with the play at 1B that require him to be at home (pulled foot, INT, overthrow). He won't have time to get to the cutout before a play on R2.

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Pre play communication for me if I am PU is:

”I’m staying home”

If you are in the working area you should be able to get the angle to 1B and be able to work back to 3rd if the ball takes you there. PU is needed at home for the potential play after an over throw or some crazy mishap. No one wants to be chasing a runner down the 3rd baseline to make the call at home. 

 

 

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Yup...the bounce back. Get your angle on first, make that call and then as soon as you are sure there is no additional action (particularly on a safe call), start moving towards third in anticipation of a throw on R2 into 3B. Be aware of the geometry and make sure you don't step into the throwing lane!

I have had some PU's verbalize to me, "You have nothing behind." meaning the runner is not going or "Play is on!" meaning the runner is going. This is nice optics, accurate communication is never a bad thing. But, if U1 is on his horse, head on a swivel anticipating and watching for that additional action at 3B, they will be aware of what is happening.

Also watch for a back pick and or a possible rundown, too...extra action, extra action. Where and when might it happen?

~Dog

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R-2 only, both umpires have presumably pointed to the ground pre-pitch to confirm that PU is staying home on all batted balls. I think that’s where he needs to stay unless something truly extraordinary happens. PU has the overthrow at 1st and should normally be on the line 1st baseline extended (or right at the plate) to help with a pulled foot challenge after the play—I actually like to plant there long enough so that if BU looks at me, he’ll see me on the line with eyes on the play at 1st. Not saying that’s gospel, just what I like to do. 

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On 9/29/2020 at 10:16 AM, ATXBlue said:

Pre play communication for me if I am PU is:

”I’m staying home”

If you are in the working area you should be able to get the angle to 1B and be able to work back to 3rd if the ball takes you there. PU is needed at home for the potential play after an over throw or some crazy mishap. No one wants to be chasing a runner down the 3rd baseline to make the call at home. 

 

 

This is a great idea!  BU should be in C, so (for 90') he should be inside anyway.  He can get a good view of the play at first, and then pivot if a throw goes across the diamond to 3B.

If the PU signals ("I'm staying home") pre-play, then there should be no confusion.  With a runner in scoring position, there are a lot of plays that could result in a play at the plate, and PU needs to be there.

Mike

Las Vegas

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On 9/29/2020 at 1:19 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Yup...the bounce back. Get your angle on first, make that call and then as soon as you are sure there is no additional action (particularly on a safe call), start moving towards third in anticipation of a throw on R2 into 3B. Be aware of the geometry and make sure you don't step into the throwing lane!

I have had some PU's verbalize to me, "You have nothing behind." meaning the runner is not going or "Play is on!" meaning the runner is going. This is nice optics, accurate communication is never a bad thing. But, if U1 is on his horse, head on a swivel anticipating and watching for that additional action at 3B, they will be aware of what is happening.

Also watch for a back pick and or a possible rundown, too...extra action, extra action. Where and when might it happen?

~Dog

If BU is paying enough attention to hear PU's comments, then he's paying enough attention to hear the offense / defense comments and should know whether there's a likely play back at third.  jmo.

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If you start in a proper 'C' you will step UP into the working area.  I was taught you should be able to work your way to the back edge of the mound, and depending on how hard the ball was hit, be on the !B side of the back edge.  From there, you pivot and retreat to get good look at any advance towards third.  You can take your pivot and first couple steps while holding up the OUT signal (Much tougher if BR is safe at first to hold signal). 100% agree in pre-pitch signal was to stay home form PU, BU has all plays in the infield.  This is good example where guys can get in trouble pre-pitch by starting too deep in C.

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On 10/1/2020 at 12:43 PM, humanbackstop19 said:

This is good example where guys can get in trouble pre-pitch by starting too deep in C.

Bingo!  A problem that far too many umpires (this includes amateur umpires and first-year pro umpires) suffer from is that their initial starting position in "B" or "C" is too deep.  Sometimes, I tease some of the Coastal Plain League umpires that I evaluate for MiLB that they must think they're already in Double-A because they're standing so deep...like they're working in a 3-man crew!  The proper mechanic, per MiLB, is to find the halfway point between the back edge of the mound and the grass/dirt line in the middle of the second base cutout.  (Note that it is NOT the halfway point between the back of the mound and second base, itself).  The umpire's depth should be that he is standing at a depth that is halfway between the back edge of the mound and the grass/dirt line in the second base cutout.  If anything, we tell them that it is okay to stand a step closer (toward the plate) if you feel it gives you a better angle...but never a step deeper.

The next key is to always step up when the ball is put in play.  That means, you should step toward the plate.  We teach that your first step should be forward and with the foot that is on the same side as the ball passed you.  So, if the umpire is in "C" and a ground ball is hit to F6 (who is standing in a normal position for an F6) or to F5, the base umpire's first step would be a big step forward with his right foot/leg.  His second step would be with his left foot.  The first step would be straight toward the plate, but as the umpire is making the second step he would turn his body so that when his left foot re-plants, his chest would now be toward the ball (toward F6 as he is fielding the batted ball).  This is how we get "chest to ball".  

With the use of a proper initial starting position the umpire will end up near the front edge (closest to home plate) of the working area/box...which is near the back edge of the mound.  If the umpire then uses the proper additional steps/footwork (and a little bit of hustle) as the play continues to develop, he will have a very good angle to see both plays.

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On 9/29/2020 at 11:19 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Yup...the bounce back. Get your angle on first, make that call and then as soon as you are sure there is no additional action (particularly on a safe call), start moving towards third in anticipation of a throw on R2 into 3B. Be aware of the geometry and make sure you don't step into the throwing lane!

 

If it's an out call, which it usually is, then I am bouncing AS I am giving my out mechanic much like I do on a double play ball at second base.

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Upon further review,  2.67 points to House Grayhawk...that is indeed a call that is best made on the move.

Sorry, @grayhawk...I've been focusing a lot on fully setting myself before making my calls and it spilled all over this conversation.

~Dog

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2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

If it's an out call, which it usually is, then I am bouncing AS I am giving my out mechanic...

:sarcasm: "But how do you know that?!! We cannot assume anything! We must paaaaauuuuuuuuuuuse... read... react. We have to use this thing called 'Timing'. And <GASP!> whaaaaaaat?! No no no no no! You can't be giving a call while on the move! Set your feet, square to the play, observe proper timing (aren't you loving that term, @Stk004?), and then make your call." :sarcasm:

@grayhawk just gave a compelling example of Experience over Schooling. A school, camp, clinic, or worse... a trainer / mentor ... doesn't teach you to do this. Experience teaches you this... being in those moments instead of reading it or watching it on a PowerPoint. So what I'd like to convey with this is flexibility, both in umpires performing this and the instructors / trainers / evaluators observing this.

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On 10/9/2020 at 3:04 PM, MadMax said:

 So what I'd like to convey with this is flexibility, both in umpires performing this and the instructors / trainers / evaluators observing this.

That sounds too much like common sense.  From what I see and hear (read as personal experience), those who train or who have been trained like to lord it over those of us without said training and make statements that we are expected to understand and follow without question.  And God help you if you do dare to challenge or ask why.

How Dare You Greta GIF

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1 hour ago, wolfe_man said:

That sounds too much like common sense.  From what I see and hear (read as personal experience), those who train or who have been trained like to lord it over those of us without said training and make statements that we are expected to understand and follow without question.  And God help you if you do dare to challenge or ask why.

Only if they're a douche.png.

Pro instruction, at its best, has become quite evidence-based, and designed to minimize the compromises that 2- and 3- and 4-umpire systems inevitably must make. Alas, some of the good-ole boy stuff is still around, hazing and all that "umpire culture" crap that used to be part of the exclusive club thing and never made anyone a better umpire. It might have been needed when all umpires had was their authority and swagger, but we have a lot more tools and professionalism now.

In my experience, the "get it right" school is promoting "we can all get better," which is IMHO the best attitude for amateur umpires, their instructors, and their evaluators. At any rate, that's what we try to promote around these parts (you're welcome to move up I-71 a couple hours and see for yourself!).

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11 minutes ago, maven said:

Only if they're a douche.png.

Pro instruction, at its best, has become quite evidence-based, and designed to minimize the compromises that 2- and 3- and 4-umpire systems inevitably must make. Alas, some of the good-ole boy stuff is still around, hazing and all that "umpire culture" crap that used to be part of the exclusive club thing and never made anyone a better umpire. It might have been needed when all umpires had was their authority and swagger, but we have a lot more tools and professionalism now.

In my experience, the "get it right" school is promoting "we can all get better," which is IMHO the best attitude for amateur umpires, their instructors, and their evaluators. At any rate, that's what we try to promote around these parts (you're welcome to move up I-71 a couple hours and see for yourself!).

I don't mean to sound too cynical.  There are the good ones too, but man I've seen and heard a lot from the others recently.   I really want to get more training but can't afford the time or the funds for a month off in January for the camps.   I really would like to get more guidance and training here in Central OH.

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