OK did I mess this one up

[ArchAngel72]

Rule set LL   also Tourney play rules for LL

R1,R2. Cannot recall outs doesn’t matter to me at this point.

2-1 count F1 delivers a Ball outside making it 3-1 

BR turns tosses his bat and starts trotting for 1st

I say out loud but there is cheering going on and it probably drowned me out. 3-1..  he gets another 2 steps “Batter 3-1”.  He’s now most the way down the line and near the bag. The other two R1 and R2 both started sauntering towards their next base like they thought it was a walk too when he was halfway down the line. I blow it dead. “Time”. “Batter count is 3-1 you need to come back”,and I tell the other 2 runners they need to retreat to their previous bases.  Things settle out and the At bat Manager asks for time.

Then he questions me on sending the runners back.

I say Coach its considered a deceitful play for the batter runner whether intentionally or not to attempt to take 1st on a 3-1 count and thus the other runners should not advance on that deceit by the offense on the defense.  

Its considered unsportsmanlike.

 

He argued it for about a 20 seconds and I repeated unsportsmanlike deceit of the defense coach.

Now I am pretty sure we went over that in class in Bristol and I am at that point 100% positive in LL. They would not let that go 

 

After the game one of my 2 man crew said he would have let the runners stay.  Well now I’m chipping away at it and I’m down to 80% Did I fubar that call. Little League rules , also mind you 10U not that it matters much I’m positive it goes majors and minors.

 

Sigh.. I’m so frustrated I looked for what I could find but I do not have Senor Azul’s skills at searching these things.

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Maybe you feel he having done it accidentally does not deserve a label so harsh, well yeah ok.  So then lets just call it what it was a mistake.  OK does that work?

And that's been the point of the discussion - don't use the word...you're not going to get a positive experience after.   Mistake is indeed a much better option...unintended confusion...etc.

 

[ArchAngel72]

1 minute ago, beerguy55 said:

 

And, frankly, it doesn't matter if you're right.  99.9% of people you talk to, if you tell them their action was deceitful they are going to assume you mean INTENTIONALLY, because that is how the word is used in common conversation.

 

So it does not matter that I am right with the language I used?  OK I will keep that in mind

 

[beerguy55]

21 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So it does not matter that I am right with the language I used?  OK I will keep that in mind

 

Really - that's what you got out of that? 

Even then you're not capable of rephrasing what I actually said...you still have to distort that in some weird effort to "win" a debate you can't win.   You were wrong...learn from it.  It's how we grow.

 

As far as what is and is not "technically" right by a dictionary...

Go out and tell someone he's "gay" (happy)....or describe someone as a "niggard" (miser), and see what kind of a reaction you get.   Sure, you'd be "technically" right in the use of those words...but nobody in their right mind uses them in those contexts anymore...because nobody takes them that way any more.

Know your audience.

[Kevin_K]

@ArchAngel72, I pride myself in the breadth of my vocabulary. The precise word in the precise spot helps communicate a message with great focus.

To help paint the picture I try to convey in words, it is important for me to understand not only the meaning of a word , but the connotation of a word as well. Melee, rowdydow,  and fracas all mean some kind of altercation, but they are perceived as different.

Deceit has a negative connotation. I might suggest that it would be difficult to find any one who would not connect deceit to purposeful hoodwinking in order to gain an advantage. To saddle a 10 year old who was more aware of his post game snack than the count with this moniker will prove unwelcome universally. The good folks who have suggested that a better choice of words might bear sweeter fruit are only offering their perspective. 

Please remember that you have asked us about the situation and many have offered their thoughts. Pedantic arguing of the meaning of a word may show that the definition is correct, but it also shows other things that are less attractive.

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So lets get right back to this part

 

Why is it you and beerguy do not think that someone accidentally forgetting the count and trotting on down the line like he's earned a walk as being deceiving to the defense?

 

So what if it is?  Why is that illegal?  Heck, he might just be walking his team into a couple of outs (I forget the outs at the beginning of the play), if the defense is paying attentions

[JonnyCat]

I'm going to weigh in on this and offer my perspective on LL umpiring. I think I can offer a couple of perspectives to illustrate what I often see with LL umpires. This is in no way a criticism of anyone on here, or any organization. It's just my observations over years of doing LL and other levels, and also how LL training differs from other levels of training. 

First a little background. I umpire anywhere from low level college summer ball (very low level), HS, travelball, and LL. I'm active as an instructor in my HS association. I'm also active in my local LL district as a District Staff Umpire. I instruct for LL at the district and have at the Western Region level. My training is very diverse from LL, to HS, to the professional level. I've been to a lot of clinics, camps, and schools, both as a student and instructor.

What you have to understand is that LL umpire training operates in a vacuum. LL doesn't have a national UIC anymore. They have a DUD, Director of Umpire Development. LL has taken the path of letting the various Regional UIC's run the training and some of the rule interpretations. If you call LL with a rules question or interpretation, they will almost always refer you to your regional UIC. The regional UIC's have a lot of leeway in rule interpretations. Part of that is because they are volunteers, and another part is that they only operate with the notion that the LL way is the only way. Most of the instructors at the district and regional levels, have never done a game outside of LL, including some of the regional UIC's. Nothing wrong with that at all, but there frame of reference is only from the "LL way."

Now I have umpired with many terrific LL umpires, and would not hesitate to walk on any field at any level with some of my LL colleagues. I've also umpired with some pretty bad LL umpires. The same could be said for my HS experiences. But what I do tell all of my LL umpires is this. "If you're really serious about umpiring, do games and get training outside of LL." It will acomplish two things. 1, you will see what LL does very well. 2, you will quickly see where LL's deficiencies are. You will get a different perspective on how games are run, how rules are interpreted on other levels, and different training methodologies and mechanics.

So what does this have to do with ArchAngel's discussion here? Frankly a lot. ArchAngel by his own admission has only done LL and only had LL training. Again, nothing wrong with that, but that is his only frame of reference. And the fact of the matter is, LL is often wrong on their training, rule interpretations, and mechanics. LL wants you to do it their way, and that's fine. However, if you haven't gone out to seek additional training or games, you're going to be surprised at the differences that are out there. But if you don't go, you will never know.

I can't tell you how many times I've been involved with LL training as both a student and instructor and have been astonished at some of the mechanics they teach. In addition, I've gone round and round with some of the senior LL "rules gurus" about rule interpretations, that LL has flat out wrong. They want to cozy up to some pro interpretations when convenient, but other times choose to ignore them completely in favor of what "they" want. I see a lot of MSU rules and interpretations. Their training is geared to the newer umpires, but doesn't evolve with more experienced umpires. They want you to do it one way, and that's it.

Some examples. Their slot positioning is poor and complicated. There are too many moving parts and your head positioning is contrary to what others are teaching. The foot work and positioning for base umpires on the small diamond is also not in line with other methodologies. They teach as a PU that on a steal of second, the PU can act as a second set of eyes on the steal, but completely ignore the PU primary responsibility of BI. They teach that on a passed ball or wild pitch without runners on base, and not a U3K, the PU is supposed to drop step back and follow the ball in order to know the status of the ball. (What?) On a routine fly ball or base hit when the PU come out on to the infield grass, they teach a convoluted path back to point of plate. They teach that when running back to point of plate, you're supposed to keep your eye on the ball at all times, don't look where you're running to, don't swivel your head. Don't do what Stu Sheurwater taught us at Wendelstedt, that's wrong.

They have a slide show about "train wrecks" at 1B, that they use at training. Saying things like "the fielder was doing what he was supposed to be doing, and so was the was the runner, so train wreck." No, it's obstruction. There is no in the "act of fielding" in LL's definition of obstruction. Kind of contrary to the HS interp, yet has the basically the same verbiage in the definition.

There is a lot of this at the LL level. Again, nothing wrong with that if that's how they want it, but it doesn't mean it's right.

That's why you're getting some pushback here.There are a lot of guys with a lot of experience that are giving you good advice. It may not be the way LL wants it, but it is correct.

 

 

 

 

 

[ArchAngel72]

12 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

That's why you're getting some pushback here.There are a lot of guys with a lot of experience that are giving you good advice. It may not be the way LL wants it, but it is correct.

I get that and I noted I would not use what I did above 12 yr olds in LL. Based on what I have heard here, what I did was how I was instructed to the best of my memory and one other that was at the same class.  With that said, yeah its bass ackwards to how it should be.  However for 10 yr olds and etc , yeah I get it.  Its teaching them mistakes happen and correcting it to how it should have been without giving the offense the benefit of the defense being deceived by the mistake. both sides err'd It was just me putting it back to how it should have been before some poor 10 yr old took a walk he should not have.   To me it seems the fairest way to sort it out at that age group.  I tend to agree with it.

 

At 13yrs and above or even lower aged  AAU or travel ball.. NO I dont agree with it. Those kids are in those leagues to gain the experience they want and need to move up and thru the leagues at a better level then I ever had a chance at.  So no they should play it as it should be.  Which would be to let the defense learn by their mistake in letting the runners walk/steal those bases and leave have the runner come back to finish his/her at bat. 

But I had the team again last night and chatted with the coach. I explained why I did what I did, after my explanation he was perfectly ok with it and agreed with it at the ages we were dealing with he felt it appropriate.  I also apologized to him for my "over the top"  explanation of the mistake in that even though the defense was deceived by the runner it was a harsh way to put it in calling him deceitful. it was a mistake.   He said that part was no big deal he got what I meant he just wanted those bases...  

[Aging_Arbiter]

I almost feel compelled to NOT use any sarcasm with this one............but I have to ask in a way to get my point across.

When the pitcher alters his wind up / stretch delivery speed..............is he not trying to deceive the runner/batter?

When the runner takes 3 or 4 running start steps towards 2B or 3B........is he not trying to deceive the catcher?

When the batter squares to bunt, the F5 charges, and the batter pulls up to chop/slap at the ball.............was he not trying to deceive the fielders?

 

Deception, to a certain degree, is and has been a part of this game for a long time.  Don't get wrapped up in what is/isn't.  If it doesn't say it is illegal in the rulebook............it isn't.

 

[stevis]

22 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

They teach that on a passed ball or wild pitch without runners on base, and not a U3K, the PU is supposed to drop step back and follow the ball in order to know the status of the ball. (What?)

Little League field, you can't trust that there's not a gap or other ball rolls out of play situation.  I've had to call that twice on pitches.  Once I even got the base award right.

[wolfe_man]

 

Holy overkill Batman! Are we still at it on this one?

AA72, I think I’d let this one go my friend. You’re outnumbered and the wagons have been circled. 

 

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, stevis said:

Little League field, you can't trust that there's not a gap or other ball rolls out of play situation.  I've had to call that twice on pitches.  Once I even got the base award right.

The scenario is without runners on, and without a U3K. How or why would you award bases with no runners on and when the BR can't advance? No runners on and no U3K, doesn't matter if the ball gets stuck.

[JonnyCat]

12 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

  I also apologized to him for my "over the top"  explanation of the mistake in that even though the defense was deceived by the runner it was a harsh way to put it in calling him deceitful. it was a mistake. 

I often see with some umpires, usually newer ones, that they get hung up on the term "deceitful," or the use of the word "deceive." Many believe that you cannot practice deceit in baseball, yet that is not true. I think it comes from the verbiage in (old OBR) 8.05 comments (or note on p162 of the 2020 LL rulebook) which use the phrase "prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the runner."

It's often misinterpreted as you can't practice deceit. I've found in few instances in the rulebook where changing a word, makes it easier to understand, and this is one of them. Changing the wording to "illegally deceive" makes it more clear. Deceit is not always illegal in baseball and should not be applied unilaterally to the different rule sections. Players cannot illegally deceive (i.e. fake tags, balks, etc), but there are plenty of instances where players can and do legally deceive each other.

I would try to avoid the use of the term deceit when discussing rules, particularly with managers and coaches.

Hope this helps.

[Rich Ives]

On 8/26/2020 at 4:04 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

 

How is that not deceit ?  HE fooled tricked and or fooled them did he not?  He did a false act and it fooled the defenders.

 

What would you call the hidden ball trick?

[ArchAngel72]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:39 PM, Rich Ives said:

What would you call the hidden ball trick?

the hidden ball trick, however that honestly cannot or is not supposed to happen in LL runners are supposed to stay on the bag until the ball has reached the batter

So if they came off the bag before they would be in trouble for a different reason already

 

[JonnyCat]

12 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

the hidden ball trick, however that honestly cannot or is not supposed to happen in LL runners are supposed to stay on the bag until the ball has reached the batter

So if they came off the bag before they would be in trouble for a different reason already

 

It can happen in Intermediate division and above.

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

It can happen in Intermediate division and above.

Yep I don't call that LL though me self I reserve LL to 8 thru 12

But yes testically it still can be under the LL name..

 

[maven]

52 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

But yes testically it still can be under the LL name..

Careful: that's a crime outside of Alabama.

[ArchAngel72]

26 minutes ago, maven said:

Careful: that's a crime outside of Alabama.

dude.. why? .. ugh.. I was not going in that direction I assure you.. 

 

[JonnyCat]

9 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Yep I don't call that LL though me self I reserve LL to 8 thru 12

But yes testically it still can be under the LL name..

 

Not a technicality at all. LL has 3 divisions above majors on the baseball side, and 2 divisions above majors on the softball side. All have regionals and world series, as well.

The hidden ball trick can and does happen at least on the baseball side.

[aaluck]

21 hours ago, maven said:

Careful: that's a crime outside of Alabama.

Easy now. We are not as backward as portrayed.  

[maven]

8 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Easy now. We are not as backward as portrayed.  

Sure, not all of you are. You, for instance, can obviously use a computer. 

But isn't the state motto still, "At least we're not Mississippi!"?

Apologies for the thread hijack. The discussion of the levels of LL is always compelling.

[aaluck]

13 minutes ago, maven said:

But isn't the state motto still, "At least we're not Mississippi!"?

It is....  By the way, Mississippi's motto is "At least we're not Ohio!"   I'm sure you have seen the Mississippi DOT signs....

 

[ArchAngel72]

14 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Not a technicality at all. LL has 3 divisions above majors on the baseball side, and 2 divisions above majors on the softball side. All have regionals and world series, as well.

The hidden ball trick can and does happen at least on the baseball side.

Yep I know.. when I went thru it, it was 8-12 LL 13-18 Babe Ruth 15-19?  legion   I did LL BR and then some legion and tried to go back to BR at 18.  Had a great tryout for the new 2nd team in our city had the coach not take me to the dismay of the 1st team. The coaches of that team told me they would have taken me had they known the coach was keeping all 16 yr olds to try and build his team young and grow it.  No seniority on that team at all which puzzled the hell out of everyone but eh such is life.  Blew my best try out for anything on that.  Played fall ball in college coach told me to come out in the spring. I was thinking with the wrong head and pledged a fraternity instead.   No regrets tho

But anyway yeah I dont recall LL having the Sr leagues when I came up thru so I still due to habit call LL minors and majors and disregard the others, Even tho I have done a 50/70 game once.  Which was WOOOOHOO so much faster and better ball than 10U  I liked it.. 

but alas Im down at 8-12 and will be there till I cant stand or walk or see, whichever hits me 1st 

 

[maven]

4 hours ago, aaluck said:

By the way, Mississippi's motto is "At least we're not Ohio!"   

I don't buy it for a minute. No way they can spell "Ohio" without singing that song.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, maven said:

I don't buy it for a minute. No way they can spell "Ohio" without singing that song.

Ohio, Alabama - there's a Neil Young reference here somewhere...