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OK did I mess this one up


ArchAngel72
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Rule set LL   also Tourney play rules for LL

R1,R2. Cannot recall outs doesn’t matter to me at this point.

2-1 count F1 delivers a Ball outside making it 3-1 

BR turns tosses his bat and starts trotting for 1st

I say out loud but there is cheering going on and it probably drowned me out. 3-1..  he gets another 2 steps “Batter 3-1”.  He’s now most the way down the line and near the bag. The other two R1 and R2 both started sauntering towards their next base like they thought it was a walk too when he was halfway down the line. I blow it dead. “Time”. “Batter count is 3-1 you need to come back”,and I tell the other 2 runners they need to retreat to their previous bases.  Things settle out and the At bat Manager asks for time.

Then he questions me on sending the runners back.

I say Coach its considered a deceitful play for the batter runner whether intentionally or not to attempt to take 1st on a 3-1 count and thus the other runners should not advance on that deceit by the offense on the defense.  

Its considered unsportsmanlike.

 

He argued it for about a 20 seconds and I repeated unsportsmanlike deceit of the defense coach.

Now I am pretty sure we went over that in class in Bristol and I am at that point 100% positive in LL. They would not let that go 

 

After the game one of my 2 man crew said he would have let the runners stay.  Well now I’m chipping away at it and I’m down to 80% Did I fubar that call. Little League rules , also mind you 10U not that it matters much I’m positive it goes majors and minors.

 

Sigh.. I’m so frustrated I looked for what I could find but I do not have Senor Azul’s skills at searching these things.

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I will go out on a limb and say because the pitcher was on the mound and close enough to the pitchers plate that the runners the base and are forced to return to the base they left.

Other than that I’m looking.. But I am damn near positive we had this in class..  Its actually eating me up right now with frustration.

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https://www.littleleague.org/university/articles/you-make-the-call-blown-count-results-in-an-out/

 

I did find that on LLU It is not the same situation but the article does say If time was called before the tag the runners would be reset.   Maybe I’m reading into that but its not the same exact. Issue either.

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I'm going with you kicking it.

Think of it this way, if the catcher threw the ball down to third because he saw the runner "sauntering" before you called time, would you have disallowed the out?

For your second point, there is no pause button on the baseball field, just because the pitcher has the ball runners are not required to do anything. The rule specifically states that the pitcher must be on the rubber, not "close enough to the pitchers plate" and the catcher must be in a position to receive the pitch (mask on, facing the pitcher) and at that point, it is a violation for the runner(s) to leave a base they are standing on. If a runner is moving between bases at that time he/she gets to keep going as long as they can. 

You posted the third one while I was typing. The case play you gave is completely different. In this case the plate umpire caused the confusion by declaring it ball four. Once that mistake was realized and corrected, an umpire is allowed and should always correct any outs or advancements that were caused by the umpires improper call. In your OP you stated that you twice gave the correct count to the field that it was only ball 3, at that point it is on the players/coaches to continue to play it out. 

Matt

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9 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

I'm going with you kicking it.

Think of it this way, if the catcher threw the ball down to third because he saw the runner "sauntering" before you called time, would you have disallowed the out?

For your second point, there is no pause button on the baseball field, just because the pitcher has the ball runners are not required to do anything. The rule specifically states that the pitcher must be on the rubber, not "close enough to the pitchers plate" and the catcher must be in a position to receive the pitch (mask on, facing the pitcher) and at that point, it is a violation for the runner(s) to leave a base they are standing on. If a runner is moving between bases at that time he/she gets to keep going as long as they can. 

You posted the third one while I was typing. The case play you gave is completely different. In this case the plate umpire caused the confusion by declaring it ball four. Once that mistake was realized and corrected, an umpire is allowed and should always correct any outs or advancements that were caused by the umpires improper call. In your OP you stated that you twice gave the correct count to the field that it was only ball 3, at that point it is on the players/coaches to continue to play it out. 

Matt

The case I gave the umpire never registered ball 4 to the field from what I read he called ball and nothing else by what I read

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Yeah from what I am reading in this and thinking about.

 

I should have either blown time and taken control of it by asking the batter to come back ASAP ( Now mind you these are 10u so I give them the honest benefit of the doubt they dont know they are doing something incorrectly)

 

Or just wait it out till things come to a stop and reset the batter..  ( Now yeah I get that with over 12 yr olds  and even all star 12 yr olds but not 10yr olds)

In the end Im gonna say I called it unsportsman like and umpires judgement or something along those lines.. FARK yes I blew it I guess.. grumble grumble grumble..

 

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The Coach seemed to know the rule! Was the batter his son by any chance?

This is why I always give a 2-1, 1-2 or 3-2 count.  1-1, 2-2 and 3-1 is given so only the batter and catcher can hear. 

In this situation I would have shown the count and verbalized, "3 balls, 1strike" as the batter started toward 1st.  

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From LL 2019

7.13 - Little League (Major) and Minor League: When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher’s plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher’s box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter.

Being "near" the rubber is not in the verbiage. I love when the coaches / parents yell, "give it to the pitcher" to kill the run opportunity. That is wrong in LL as there are two elements that must be satisfied.

Sauntering, running, skipping, rolling, or any other method chosen by the runners to make their way to the next base is up to the runners, As is the risk to whether they are put out in the attempt since it was THEIR own player causing the confusion.

I would say to call the batter back, allow the fellows that progressed "untagged" to the next base(s) to remain on their new bases, because you cannot say it was because of the "walk" (or the intend to steal ( that they made their move.  If the runners were tagged then those outs should stand.

Yes, you will have argument (don't we all have those from time to time), but the real issue was the batter runner needing to be called back.

 

Right or wrong, you took control, they do not have to like it, just buy into it. Your explanation sounded good enough to me. Ha ha.

I have had the defense start to leave the field because they thought it was 3 outs, as the runners came running home. I let it stand just the same. Pay attention to the count and the the outs, I announce before each pitch.

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for the record I do announce 99% of the time on the big ones 2 strikes anything or 3 balls anything

I also announce every other pitch and will alternate between odds and evens depending on how the count went

I did say  2 -1 before the pitch but like I said the at bat team was cheering pretty loud and I probably was drowned out

I did ask after the game if the guys in the field (3 man crew) could hear me and they said yes loud and clear 

that is one thing I do try to stress on because too many of the young guys wont enunciate "BALL"

 

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17 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I say Coach its considered a deceitful play for the batter runner whether intentionally or not to attempt to take 1st on a 3-1 count and thus the other runners should not advance on that deceit by the offense on the defense.  Its considered unsportsmanlike like.

How is it deceitful or unsportsmanlike if there is no intent?

My question is, even if as an umpire you KNEW the batter intentionally went to first on a 3-1 count, with the express intent of trying to deceive the defense to let the runners advance, is there actually a rule against that??   This to me falls into the same category as the batter running on a dropped third strike with first base occupied.

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14 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

How is it deceitful or unsportsmanlike if there is no intent?

My question is, even if as an umpire you KNEW the batter intentionally went to first on a 3-1 count, with the express intent of trying to deceive the defense to let the runners advance, is there actually a rule against that??   This to me falls into the same category as the batter running on a dropped third strike with first base occupied.

 

No need for intent.

 

 

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After speaking about it with my UIC we both went to the same class down in Bristol and we are both thinking Doc brought this up and I played it out as he said it should go.

I'm pretty sure thats why I did it the way I did it. I was recalling a class lecture on that situation.

 

Now I am not saying this is the way it is for anything above LL just how Doc told is to do it.  But my thing was I shoulda called time and called the batter back immediately before he got down the path to ensure the rest of everything that happened did not happen.

after all 10 yr olds need a lot more "direction" than Sr league kids do.

I was beating myself up about it but Im kinda meh about it today. I know where I would change what I did and how I will handle it going fwd

 

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Guest LL Coach

I coach LL.  You should have let it go. 

I respectfully suggest you avoid looking for Unsportsmanlike Conduct when a player makes a mistake, or even when a player makes a "mistake".  The rule book has several rules dealing with Unsportsmanlike Conduct (Reg. XIV, 4.06, 4.08, 9.01(d), 9.03 (d)(4), 9.05 (b)), none of them involve a player doing something normal, even when the rules don't allow it (in your case, the batter was trying to become a runner even though he wasn't one yet).  Deceit is not unsportsmanlike in and of itself.  

This play was a great opportunity for everyone involved to learn something about the game.  Now a bunch of players, coaches and spectators think that you can't run to first by mistake without the play getting killed.  One of the essences of baseball is that the ball is to be kept "live" as much as possible.  In fact, the rules state when you as an umpire can call "time".  See 5.10, and in your sitch, especially 5.10(h).

 

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53 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

No need for intent.

If there's no intent there cannot be, by definition, deceit nor unsportsmanlike behavior.   Words have meanings.  Call it confusion if you want.  Call it SNAFU.  Call it just about anything else.  But what the batter did was neither deceitful nor unsportsmanlike.    You may want to correct any perceived injustice caused by the confusion out of an overdeveloped sense of fair play, but if this does happen again do not, under any circumstances, tell the coach his player deceived the defense, and that it's unsportsmanlike behavior.   You're just looking to start a SH*#storm, because most people who understand the English language are going to take offense to that position.

If the runners advance, that's on the defense.  If the runners get tagged out, that's on them.   This is how players learn.  Keep the bubble to a minimum.

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35 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

If there's no intent there cannot be, by definition, deceit nor unsportsmanlike behavior.   Words have meanings.  Call it confusion if you want.  Call it SNAFU.  Call it just about anything else.  But what the batter did was neither deceitful nor unsportsmanlike.    You may want to correct any perceived injustice caused by the confusion out of an overdeveloped sense of fair play, but if this does happen again do not, under any circumstances, tell the coach his player deceived the defense, and that it's unsportsmanlike behavior.   You're just looking to start a SH*#storm, because most people who understand the English language are going to take offense to that position.

If the runners advance, that's on the defense.  If the runners get tagged out, that's on them.   This is how players learn.  Keep the bubble to a minimum.

 

Well Beer guy   Even if the batter did not have intent.  HE DID deceive the defensive team by walking to 1st on a 3-1 count did he not?  Every one on the field reacted like he earned a walk when he had not.

 

How is that not deceit ?  HE fooled tricked and or fooled them did he not?  He did a false act and it fooled the defenders.

 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/deceit?s=t

 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/deceive?s=t

 

Whether or not he intended to do it, HE DID it.

In the end it was a mistake on his part and on all the fielders and then well ON ME for not blowing it dead and taking charge.

 

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8 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Well Beer guy   Even if the batter did not have intent.  HE DID deceive the defensive team by walking to 1st on a 3-1 count did he not?  Every one on the field reacted like he earned a walk when he had not.

 

How is that not deceit ?  HE fooled tricked and or fooled them did he not?  He did a false act and it fooled the defenders.

 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/deceit?s=t

 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/deceive?s=t

 

Whether or not he intended to do it, HE DID it.

In the end it was a mistake on his part and on all the fielders and then well ON ME for not blowing it dead and taking charge.

 

Even if the defense was deceived, there's no rule protecting them, nor to allow you to call time.

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