Force at first

[Guest Darrian]

I was watching a friends team of 13 yr olds play today when the following occurred: a player hit a grounder to third, the third baseman threw the ball to first, the runner beats the throw by a split second, but doesn't step on first base, he steps just to the right of it. The ump calls the runner safe and explains it by saying that since the runner beat the throw, even though he didn't touch the bag, it was no longer a force out and the first baseman should have tagged the runner. Is this correct?

[Recontra]

Thanks for both replies. Think I got it.  A BR who misses the bag, but who runs through the bag and either has a foot on the ground to the side of or who is "passed" the bag before the catch is made shall be called Safe!  Everything else, umpire the play and make the call.

[johnnyg08]

While I respect the ideas of the author in the previous thread, calling the B/R safe in these situations and waiting for an appeal is not good game management.  

 

I'm not saying that I'm right but I think the game allows us to get an out and everybody in the stadium expects an out to be called too.  

[Sayhey]

Has anyone actually seen a "casual step" touch of a bag?

It's good that we covered all the details of this scenario to prepare for what may happen , but I have never seen a player casually step on a bag. A player steps on a bag for a reason. Speaking of casual, should an umpire act casual when observing a runner miss first base?

[Jimurray]

While I respect the ideas of the author in the previous thread, calling the B/R safe in these situations and waiting for an appeal is not good game management.  

 

I'm not saying that I'm right but I think the game allows us to get an out and everybody in the stadium expects an out to be called too.

I think @jpperez14, in post number 7, might have the best answer for 1B. If you see a missed tag, a pulled foot or a missed base you call what you see at least at 1B? There is no authoratative interp of passing a base, at least at 1B.

[johnnyg08]

I've had a play where I banged the batter out, even tho he beat the throw by two feet. He never touched first completely went over the base.

 

Didn't hear a word...Right?

[noumpere]

Has anyone actually seen a "casual step" touch of a bag?

It's good that we covered all the details of this scenario to prepare for what may happen , but I have never seen a player casually step on a bag. A player steps on a bag for a reason. Speaking of casual, should an umpire act casual when observing a runner miss first base?

Yes, I've seen a "casual step" touch of a bag.

 

And, you act just as you would if the runner had touched the base -- same as if R1 misses second on the way to third. Up to you whether that's "acting casual."  What you don't do is anything that draws attention to the missed base.

[BretMan]

Maybe "casual step" isn't the best descriptive term to use here. I'm thinking they mean something more like an "incidental step" on the base.

 

With a play on the batter-runner at first base, where is the fielder going to be standing? On first base (or, directly adjacent to it, preparing to tag it). If the runner does miss the base, the fielder is going to still be doing whatever he would have been doing if the runner hadn't missed the base (ie: touch the bag).

 

Since this "casual/incidental" touch of the base does nothing to show an umpire that the fielder knows anything is amiss, it alone and of itself doesn't constitute a proper appeal.

[jpperez14]

@johnnyg08 @Jimurray

 

I had the 3rd base coach (head coach) over 120ft away argue that there was no way. 1st base coach asked me how it could be, informed him the runner never touched first base, 1st base coach said he thought so, didn't know if I saw it tho, then turned to his runner and got after him for completely missing the base. 3rd base coach settled down after 1BC told them what I had saw. No one really argued afterwards, 3rd base coach asked me about it after the inning, spoke with him about what I saw, very friendly and casual, understood completely and agreed with my call.

[Dbellyflop]

So to get a batter runner out the defense must touch the base with the ball or tag the batter runner with the ball before the batter runner touches the base. how is the batter runner not out? since the base was touched by the F3 before the batter runner touched it?

[Dbellyflop]

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 

copied from MLB website. rule 6.05 j

[noumpere]

So to get a batter runner out the defense must touch the base with the ball or tag the batter runner with the ball before the batter runner touches the base. how is the batter runner not out? since the base was touched by the F3 before the batter runner touched it?

I assume you are talking about the play where the batter misses but passes first, and then F3 touchjes the base --

 

the batter is NOT out, despite the literal reading of the rule, because a runer is assumed to have touched a base he passes until there's an appeal.

[maven]

So to get a batter runner out the defense must touch the base with the ball or tag the batter runner with the ball before the batter runner touches the base. how is the batter runner not out? since the base was touched by the F3 before the batter runner touched it?

 

As noumpere has indicated, the BR is not out. A number of different provisions apply to this play.

 

First, by interpretation, the BR has acquired 1B by passing it, even if he misses it. The idea is to determine whether ball beats runner or runner beats ball. The defense has the opportunity to beat the runner: if ball beats runner, then the BR missing the base is moot, and he's out. 1B is special, since the BR may legally overrun it, but in general any runner who passes a base has acquired it pending a legal appeal.

 

If runner beats ball, then the defense has not succeeded in its initial attempt to retire him. If the BR misses the base, then he is liable to be put out on appeal, but he has acquired the base (and the proper mechanic is to signal and verbalize "Safe!" here).

 

If F3, in taking the throw from another infielder, happens to step on 1B after the BR has passed, and he is not obviously making an appeal of the missed base, then we ignore that tag attempt. That's the one that the runner beat. Since we do not allow "accidental" appeals (see 7.10 COMMENT: "A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal"), a fielder must make an unmistakeable appeal before we rule on it.

 

When F2 (or whoever) starts shouting, "he missed the base! he missed the base!" and F3 then tags 1B, that would be unmistakeable. We rule on the appeal, and if the BR missed the base, bang him out. Then you'll have to explain all this to the OC.

 

BTW, there used to be an old interp that said if the BR started scrambling back when the defense started shouting about the missed base, then HE, and not the base, would have to be tagged (this is the J/R "relaxed/unrelaxed action" interp). This interpretation has been superseded recently, and the appeal may be done by tagging runner or base, as usual, no matter what the runner is doing.

[MadMax]

 

Has anyone actually seen a "casual step" touch of a bag?

Yes, I've seen a "casual step" touch of a bag.

 

And, you act just as you would if the runner had touched the base -- same as if R1 misses second on the way to third. Up to you whether that's "acting casual."  What you don't do is anything that draws attention to the missed base.

 

Exactly.

As little ballplayers (10U, 9U, 8U) are apt to do, the infielders routinely stand themselves on a base when receiving a throw. With R1, and a hit to the outfield (F7-F9), you'll probably see F4 or F6 run over and stand on 2B (and depending on coaching, start yelling "Here! Here! Here!"). R1 just runs like he's lit on fire and runs right around 2B without touching it whatsoever   . He's already on his way to 3B, and the throw comes into F4/6 standing on 2B. BR is standing on 1B (or doing that silly "I dare ya, I dare ya" hop-around) and R1 slides in a dramatic, dust-cloud-spurring butt slide (that ends a foot short) of 3B, but no worries, there's no play happening. F4/6 is still standing on 2B looking back and forth at 1B and 3B with the entire coaching staff (usually, a dad of each the players) screaming "Get it to the pitcher! Get it to the pitcher!" (since they mistakenly think this is related to their daughters' softball games).

And we stand there, saying nothing.

Is R1 out? Shockingly not, because despite all that frenetic running around second base, he actually did acquire it. Do you think anyone really saw R1 miss 2B? It would take a Zapruder Film review for anyone else to notice, because despite having eight coaches in the dugout (area), everyone is watching the ball, and little Zachary's efforts to retrieve it and throw it without falling on his face. And again, we say nothing. It takes an actual appeal of/at 2B to rule that R1 is out.

Now, not to split hairs, but that appeal – in OBR (and most/all modified OBR sets), a live-ball appeal is required. Did I read and remember correctly that FED only needs a dead-ball / bench appeal? So if this game was operating under FED ruleset, one of those coaches could just say, "Hey ump, their kid missed 2B!" ? (Yes, I am making this sound trite, since most high-school age kids, playing under NFHS, are capable of making an appeal. Those little kids, though, just stand around dumbfounded, or are off trying to tie their shoes (again) or tuck their jersey in (again).)

[Mudisfun]

Those little kids, though, just stand around dumbfounded, or are off trying to tie their shoes (again) or tuck their jersey in (again).)