Infield Fly

[Guest JJ]

Runners on 1st and 2nd when a pop fly is hit to the second baseman. At this point, the umpire immediately calls "Infield Fly" and declares the batter out.

 

The runner on second started running to 3rd when the ball was hit and before the ball was caught.

 

The 2nd baseman catches the ball and immediately throws to the shortstop who tags 2nd base before the runner returns to the base.

 

The umpire states that all force plays are "off" when the infield fly rule is in effect and declares the runner safe at second stating he needed to be tagged out since there is no force.

 

Is this the correct call? I understand there in no longer a force at 3rd base since the batter is declared out but does the "all force plays are off" hold true for the runner leaving the base early on a pop fly? That seems nonsensical. What is the correct call?

 

 

[goody14]

Sounds like the guy was right and then woefully misguided.

 

The right part: there are no force outs when there is an infield fly.

 

The misguided part: a throw to retire a runner who did not tag up is not a force - it is an appeal.

 

As described the call was not right.

[Majordave]

That umpire is an idiot.  He needs to read a freaking rule book.  Throwing the ball to F6 before R2 retouches 2B is all he needs to do.  R2 is out if that occurs.

 

Edit:  He got the call wrong and gave the wrong reason for it.  Time play not force play.  Next time you see him slip him a note with this website's address and ask him to go read the forum.  AFTER the game is over of course.  

[johnnyg08]

He is misguided on terminology. 

 

A very common misunderstanding is that an appeal play is a force play when those two are not the same. 

He is right that once a batter/runner is retired it effectively removes all force plays.  (that is the point of the IFF)

[ALStripes17]

Runners on 1st and 2nd when a pop fly is hit to the second baseman. At this point, the umpire immediately calls "Infield Fly" and declares the batter out.

The runner on second started running to 3rd when the ball was hit and before the ball was caught.

The 2nd baseman catches the ball and immediately throws to the shortstop who tags 2nd base before the runner returns to the base.

The umpire states that all force plays are "off" when the infield fly rule is in effect and declares the runner safe at second stating he needed to be tagged out since there is no force.

Is this the correct call? I understand there in no longer a force at 3rd base since the batter is declared out but does the "all force plays are off" hold true for the runner leaving the base early on a pop fly? That seems nonsensical. What is the correct call?

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!

Infield fly is still treated like any other fly ball: runners must retouch or 'tag up' on the catch (first touch).

Retouching bases (tagging up) and missed bases are appeal plays for the defense, also known as time plays - not force plays.

That umpire needs to go back and read the def'n of a force.

[ZebraStripes]

That umpire is an idiot.  He needs to read a freaking rule book.  Throwing the ball to F6 before R2 retouches 2B is all he needs to do.  R2 is out if that occurs.

 

Edit:  He got the call wrong and gave the wrong reason for it.  Time play not force play.  Next time you see him slip him a note with this website's address and ask him to go read the forum.  AFTER the game is over of course.  

He's not an idiot...he's a freaking idiot.  Though if he is kicking rules like that, maybe he shouldn't wait until the game is over.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Never ceases to amaze me how many folks don't know the dif between a force and an appeal.

 

I'm inclined to give fans, young players and amateur coaches a pass on this lack of knowledge, but an umpire at ANY level has got to know better.

[johnnyg08]

 

Runners on 1st and 2nd when a pop fly is hit to the second baseman. At this point, the umpire immediately calls "Infield Fly" and declares the batter out.

The runner on second started running to 3rd when the ball was hit and before the ball was caught.

The 2nd baseman catches the ball and immediately throws to the shortstop who tags 2nd base before the runner returns to the base.

The umpire states that all force plays are "off" when the infield fly rule is in effect and declares the runner safe at second stating he needed to be tagged out since there is no force.

Is this the correct call? I understand there in no longer a force at 3rd base since the batter is declared out but does the "all force plays are off" hold true for the runner leaving the base early on a pop fly? That seems nonsensical. What is the correct call?

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!

Infield fly is still treated like any other fly ball: runners must retouch or 'tag up' on the catch (first touch).

Retouching bases (tagging up) and missed bases are appeal plays for the defense, also known as time plays - not force plays.

That umpire needs to go back and read the def'n of a force.

 

 

A caught infield fly.

[ALStripes17]

Runners on 1st and 2nd when a pop fly is hit to the second baseman. At this point, the umpire immediately calls "Infield Fly" and declares the batter out.

The runner on second started running to 3rd when the ball was hit and before the ball was caught.

The 2nd baseman catches the ball and immediately throws to the shortstop who tags 2nd base before the runner returns to the base.

The umpire states that all force plays are "off" when the infield fly rule is in effect and declares the runner safe at second stating he needed to be tagged out since there is no force.

Is this the correct call? I understand there in no longer a force at 3rd base since the batter is declared out but does the "all force plays are off" hold true for the runner leaving the base early on a pop fly? That seems nonsensical. What is the correct call?

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!

Infield fly is still treated like any other fly ball: runners must retouch or 'tag up' on the catch (first touch).

Retouching bases (tagging up) and missed bases are appeal plays for the defense, also known as time plays - not force plays.

That umpire needs to go back and read the def'n of a force.

A caught infield fly.

Explained in the sentence following.

Not even sure that is a technicality. My statement is correct allowing for the def'n of IFF

[maven]

Never ceases to amaze me how many folks don't know the dif between a force and an appeal.

 

My hypothesis is that this myth is the result of the fact that for both force plays and appeals the defense may tag the base instead of the runner, so people conclude that the other features of force plays carry over to appeals as well.

 

That's wrong, as we know, but not necessarily as idiotic as we sometimes make it out to be.

[johnnyg08]

 

Never ceases to amaze me how many folks don't know the dif between a force and an appeal.

 

My hypothesis is that this myth is the result of the fact that for both force plays and appeals the defense may tag the base instead of the runner, so people conclude that the other features of force plays carry over to appeals as well.

 

That's wrong, as we know, but not necessarily as idiotic as we sometimes make it out to be.

 

 

Oh for sure that's where it comes from.  Yet simple terminology solves the problem. 

[Guest JJ]

Thank you to all for verifying my instinct that the umpire was just making stuff up!

[maven]

Thank you to all for verifying my instinct that the umpire was just making stuff up!

 

Well, I'm sure it didn't seem that way to him: he probably did not feel puzzled by something unusual and that he had to just make up some ruling on the play.

 

I'd guess he was as certain as he could be that this is how every umpire would rule on the play, and that he would be rather surprised to learn that he was mistaken.

 

"It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." –Will Rogers

[Forest Ump]

 

He's not an idiot...he's a freaking idiot.  Though if he is kicking rules like that, maybe he shouldn't wait until the game is over.

 

 

I wouldn't call the guy a idiot. The OP doesn't mention the level of this game. It could be a new guy just starting out. Many of us made these kind of mistakes when we started. Never forget we are a brotherhood.

[noumpere]

I agree.  It's also possible (at least theoretically, and given perhaps a slight change in the coach's description) that the umpire thought the "throw to second" was an attempt to retire R1, not an appeal of R2 leaving early.

 

And, if we're going to cast terms like "idiot" -- we should apply it to the runner as well.

[BigSimonia]

I think the misconception is based on the fact that the batter is out regardless of whether F6 (or whomever) catches the IFF.  The thinking goes that since the batter is out the fact that the IFF is caught is immaterial.  I am well aware that that thinking is NOT correct, but I think that's the basis for misunderstanding

[ZebraStripes]

 

 

He's not an idiot...he's a freaking idiot.  Though if he is kicking rules like that, maybe he shouldn't wait until the game is over.

 

 

I wouldn't call the guy a idiot. The OP doesn't mention the level of this game. It could be a new guy just starting out. Many of us made these kind of mistakes when we started. Never forget we are a brotherhood.

 

That part of the infield fly rule is something you learn as an 8 year old playing baseball, so I can't imagine kicking that one based on just getting started.  I suppose it is possible that the situation is not as described, though.

[ZebraStripes]

I agree.  It's also possible (at least theoretically, and given perhaps a slight change in the coach's description) that the umpire thought the "throw to second" was an attempt to retire R1, not an appeal of R2 leaving early.

 

And, if we're going to cast terms like "idiot" -- we should apply it to the runner as well.

That goes without saying that runners who take off and not find the ball on a pop up with less than 2 outs are involved in an ID TEN T error.