Pre-season high school scrimmages...paid or unpaid?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Greetings brothers,

     I just wanted to take an informal survey here...my association works pre-season high school scrimmages for free. We typically work 2 man mechanics, 4 or 5 umpires and a crew chief who is there to evaluate. By contract, we work 10 innings with no time limit and sometimes the coaches will "let" us go early. So, 2 guys are always sitting out with the chief, observing and discussing what is or what should be happening on the field. This also allows for guys to remove or put on their plate gear depending on where they are in the rotation. We also offer several indoor cage sessions with a pitching machine with coaching from our senior training staff as well as a few live pitching sessions whenever the schools call and ask us if we wish to attend.

     Again, just fact finding...what do you and your associations do for your high schools and their pre-season scrimmages? And are you paid?

~Dawg

[Catch18]

Our Assoc. used to get 1/2 the varsity game rate. About 2-3 years ago they went to full game rate. Standard 2 umpire assignment, with 7 innings - play it like reg season.

Umpires will organize on our own if we want cage work, get reps in at practices, etc.

[kylehutson]

In my area we haven't even had any umpires working scrimmages for several years. When we did, it was in the form of a clinic, very similar to what you mention (though it's usually "we're going to play for 1-1/2 hours, not keep track of innings or scores, and when we're done, we're done).

It was always unpaid

[Thatsnotyou]

Umpires should be paid for scrimmages. You need to be paid for your time. My wife already hates the time away from home for the little pay we get when calculated door to door…if she found out I was doing it for free for 2.5-3 hours? Oh boy. I can take care of my kids for free, too. 
 

Coaches will maybe “let” you go early from your unpaid work? That’s sure something. How nice. 

I haven’t worked many scrimmages, but the ones I have, I’ve been paid. I don’t see a reason that schools shouldn’t pay a normal rate if you’re working a game, even if there is no visiting school.

 

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

Unpaid?  No thanks.  I don't do it for the pay, but I also don't do it for the pay.

A clinic is something very different than a scrimmage, at least in my parlance.  

[umpstu]

Absolutely paid.  JV or freshman 1 hour 40 minute time limit.  $70. One man mechanics.

[Richvee]

I’m always up for one or two evaluation/ clinic style scrimmages without pay. As long as it’s conducted with reputable, accomplished clinicians. Always hood to get feedback especially early in the season. That’s similar to finding some workouts and getting some cage work in. Not getting paid for that, it’s just part of getting ready for the season. 

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

I’m always up for one or two evaluation/ clinic style scrimmages without pay. As long as it’s conducted with reputable, accomplished clinicians. Always hood to get feedback especially early in the season. That’s similar to finding some workouts and getting some cage work in. Not getting paid for that, it’s just part of getting ready for the season. 

I agree, if it is more of a clinic, and I'm not working the whole game. Rotate people in and out, get feedback, absolutely. Training is always good.

However (here comes a rant), I've decide this year I'm not working for any organization that requires me to pay dues or give game fee kickbacks. Why the F*#K should I have to pay to work SH*#ty minimum wage games with lousy working conditions? Here's an idea, pay me for the games I work, and the association can figure a way to get their money from the customers.

What the F*#K is this crap paying dues? I'm sick of it and not doing it anymore. Paying someone for the privilege of working a crappy job? Really? Golly, we have problems getting umpires. Here's an idea. Lets charge them $200.00 up front before we start paying them. That's a great idea, let's put up more barriers to recruitment. Lets make that SH*#ty paying job even more SH*#ty.

What a F*#King archaic and antiquated system. Seriously, why do we put up with this?

You either pay me to work games with no up front fees or kickbacks, or I'll be happy to work LL games for free, and not put up with HS coaches and players, or adult babies that think they still might get that pro contract. At least with LL I almost always get an appreciation for what I do, and something out of the snack-bar, as well as having a good time with my partner.

I'm not doing pay to play any longer.

[mw94]

Throw in the price of plate gear . Its even more expensive to umpire. Football & Basketball much lower gear & uniform cost

[lawump]

Our agreement with the state is that we are required to work 2 scrimmages for each team at each school.  The umpires are not paid, but the association is paid $25 per scrimmage by the school...which is new the year.  With 31 schools, most of whom have 3 teams (varsity, jayvee, and freshman (called "B" Team))...we've decided to use the money to pay for an end-of-season banquet.  

While no one likes be unpaid for scrimmages...there's not a lot of complaining as the state has significantly increased our pay for games over the last few years.  

[lawump]

8 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

However (here comes a rant), I've decide this year I'm not working for any organization that requires me to pay dues or give game fee kickbacks. Why the F*#K should I have to pay to work SH*#ty minimum wage games with lousy working conditions? Here's an idea, pay me for the games I work, and the association can figure a way to get their money from the customers.

What the F*#K is this crap paying dues? I'm sick of it and not doing it anymore. Paying someone for the privilege of working a crappy job? Really? Golly, we have problems getting umpires. Here's an idea. Lets charge them $200.00 up front before we start paying them. That's a great idea, let's put up more barriers to recruitment. Lets make that SH*#ty paying job even more SH*#ty.

What a F*#King archaic and antiquated system. Seriously, why do we put up with this?

You either pay me to work games with no up front fees or kickbacks, or I'll be happy to work LL games for free, and not put up with HS coaches and players, or adult babies that think they still might get that pro contract. At least with LL I almost always get an appreciation for what I do, and something out of the snack-bar, as well as having a good time with my partner.

I'm not doing pay to play any longer.

I guess it depends on the nature of the association.  Yes, we charge dues in the association of which I am President (the association that assigns for the 31 high schools in the Columbia, SC metro area and the associated American Legion teams).  Our dues are $25 per year (which I think most would find to be reasonable).  We need that money to pay for the room we rent to hold our pre-season meetings, pay for the guest instructors we bring in for our weekend on-field clinic, and pay for training materials.  We do not have any other source of revenue.  Sometimes, if we're frugal with the money after a couple of years we may actually have a thousand dollars or so saved.  Then, we'll spend that on the membership.  In the past we've provide shirts, hats, etc., which helps reduce some uniform costs.

With that said, we're about as democratic an association as an association can be.  We have an 8-person Board of Directors that oversees everything and half of the Board is up for re-election every year.  If any member wants to "see the books" they can.  I'm a firm believer that if you're going to collect dues from members you (the leaders of the association) have to be open and honest about where that money is going. 

FWIW, we had two guys join our association this year from the northeast (they both just retired and moved South).  Both of them could not believe how reasonable our dues are and how much they are getting paid per game.  So, I guess compared to at least one other part of the country our association is a good deal. 

[NavyBlue]

Chapter charges the school $100 for a three-hour scrimmage (funds the chapter).  Umpires each get the $20 state travel fee (we send 3-4 umpires).  Each umpire works on average 3-5 scrimmages, 2-man mechanics.  

 

 

[GreyhoundAggie]

In ours the chapter gets paid. Not sure what the exact amount is. It funds the chapter and keeps our dues low. This year they started being able to charge 2 travel fees of $20 each. It will be split among the umpires that go.

Most scrimmages we only have 2 guys. Some we have 3 or 4.

We are committed for 3 hours and we just call baseball and the coaches decide how to run the scrimmages.

[JSam21]

2 hours ago, lawump said:

Our agreement with the state is that we are required to work 2 scrimmages for each team at each school.  The umpires are not paid, but the association is paid $25 per scrimmage by the school...which is new the year.  With 31 schools, most of whom have 3 teams (varsity, jayvee, and freshman (called "B" Team))...we've decided to use the money to pay for an end-of-season banquet.  

While no one likes be unpaid for scrimmages...there's not a lot of complaining as the state has significantly increased our pay for games over the last few years.  

So the state is requiring your association to cover up to 186 games for free? What is the reasoning for that? Is this in lieu of other required state training? If not, why would you agree to this? 

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, lawump said:

I guess it depends on the nature of the association.  Yes, we charge dues in the association of which I am President (the association that assigns for the 31 high schools in the Columbia, SC metro area and the associated American Legion teams).  Our dues are $25 per year (which I think most would find to be reasonable).  We need that money to pay for the room we rent to hold our pre-season meetings, pay for the guest instructors we bring in for our weekend on-field clinic, and pay for training materials.  We do not have any other source of revenue.  Sometimes, if we're frugal with the money after a couple of years we may actually have a thousand dollars or so saved.  Then, we'll spend that on the membership.  In the past we've provide shirts, hats, etc., which helps reduce some uniform costs.

With that said, we're about as democratic an association as an association can be.  We have an 8-person Board of Directors that oversees everything and half of the Board is up for re-election every year.  If any member wants to "see the books" they can.  I'm a firm believer that if you're going to collect dues from members you (the leaders of the association) have to be open and honest about where that money is going. 

FWIW, we had two guys join our association this year from the northeast (they both just retired and moved South).  Both of them could not believe how reasonable our dues are and how much they are getting paid per game.  So, I guess compared to at least one other part of the country our association is a good deal. 

Thanks for the information lawump. That at least sounds reasonable and transparent, in addition to the money going to back to the association. I guess graft and corruption is the norm in my area.

Our HS association signs contracts with San Diego CIF, and other private baseball organizations, and collects money from them. If you're not collecting enough money from your customers to pay for your operating costs and pay your umpires, then you have no business being in business.

I'm not joking when I say our HS dues are over $200.00, plus some free games, plus the assignor or the association gets a cut of the game fees for HS and Pony/LL. There are 4 paid positions on the board, and very little money is spent on the membership. Our meetings are held at a public room at the County Office of Education at no cost. When I was running the training program, the association didn't pay for SH*#, they would even squawk at buying lunch for the students at our all day clinics. They wanted us to do 1/2 day clinics, and only one day per season so they didn't have to pay for lunch. I've never seen proper financial records in nearly 10 years. Their website looks like someone threw up a Scrabble game on the screen.

The local adult baseball league charges dues of over $100.00, plus a $5.00 cut from each game assignment. Mind you, the teams pay a fee to the league to play. Why does that business not collect enough to pay the umpires and cover the cost of overhead? I don't for the life of me understand where this pay to play scheme of kickbacks originated from, nor how everyone accepts it.

$25.00 dues to fund the membership, with full transparency, I can understand. But getting ripped off and being forced to subsidize our own outrageously underpaid games, not going to put up with that crap anymore.

Wow, can't understand how in the world there is a shortage of sports officials.

[lawump]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

$25.00 dues to fund the membership, with full transparency, I can understand. But getting ripped off and being forced to subsidize our own outrageously underpaid games, not going to put up with that crap anymore.

 

I'm with you! 

I can also say that we have used our funds to bring in people teach at our annual weekend clinic.  For instance, we brought in the MiLBUD executive director one year, we brought in an SEC umpire this year, we brought in a CWS umpire another year.  

And, our camp is a 100% teaching camp.  That is, it is not a camp where guys work games all weekend and get called over to the fence between innings "for instruction".  And where the camp administrator keeps all the game fees because the umpires are working the games for free because "its a camp".  That is the biggest scam going on...in multiple sports: Where officials have to attend the camp, but the camp provides minimal instruction (only between innings, or between quarters, etc.) and the camp keeps all of the game fees normally paid to the umps/refs by the league (in addition to the camp charging campers tuition).  

We actually provide 16-hours of hands-on training.  And we have some pretty good damn instructors.  

[lawump]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

So the state is requiring your association to cover up to 186 games for free? What is the reasoning for that? Is this in lieu of other required state training? If not, why would you agree to this? 

Each school pays the association $25 for each scrimmage worked.  The association can use that money as they see fit.  We've elected to do a post-season banquet. 

The reasoning is that it is the contract between the state high school league and the local associations.   In layman's terms the contract is: "Our member schools will pay umpires X per game, and will pay a booking fee of Y per game to the assignor...in return you (the local association) agree to provide trained and qualified umpires and provide umpires for 2 scrimmages at each team at each school".

Honestly, I have a pretty good feel for the pulse of my association.  So I can say with confidence:  while no one loves doing scrimmages...it is not that big a deal in our association.  We require our guys to work a minimum of two scrimmages (they're assigned like games).  We don't usually have to require members to work more because a lot of guys volunteer to work more (they want to get ready for the season.) 

I think everyone is okay with this because the high school league office has worked very hard over the last five years to convince its members (schools) to increase our pay.  Our minimum pay for this year is now $91...and if you travel more than 20 total miles to get to/from the game it will be more than that.  The vast majority (95%) of my games will be more than $100.  For this part of the country...that is not bad.  Considering that I made $110 for Big South and Southern Conference non-conference games in the late 1990's...I'm not complaining about getting paid $100 to $125 for high school games that are normally 1:30 to 1:45 in length...and I get to sleep in my own bed every night.  

The other place where we come out ahead is that the schools are not required to use three umpires until they get to the "state level" of the playoffs.  With that said, many of our schools will pay for three umpires for their spring break tournaments and all of them pay for three umpires for the entirety of the playoffs (i.e. "districts").  So, we have a lot of "extra" opportunities for guys to work.  It all works out.

[Mudisfun]

Our HS unit only assigns HS and some pre-season HS games. Our membership fee is $185 if you signup by a specific date and then it goes up, I think to $205? If you refer a new member, you get a $25 credit (up to $50) off your membership cost. The fees covers NASO insurance which from what I recall runs roughly $100 per official. The rest of the funds go to paying our Secretary and IC which are paid positions, purchasing rule books (nice that FED charges us a fee just to download their books to officiate their games), case books and providing the all important CBUA patch we all have to wear. The fee helps fund scholar-shipping new officials who cannot afford the joining costs as well as funding our pizza party at the end of the season.

Members are required to purchase a CIF logoed hat which runs roughly $20 in addition to only 4 approved shirts. Our assigning fees are $4 per slot, which of course comes out of our game fees after the fact. So all in all, if you cover 25 games, the cost to you as an umpire just to work HS games in our CIF association is roughly $300 without adding in transportation, uniform or equipment costs. Game fee's for varsity this season are $92. The pre-season games the association is just throwing on Arbiter for self-assign and there are no fees. Teams are paying roughly $80 for one umpire at the plate. Other than this sort of high school assigning, there is no other levels assigned by my HS unit (pony, ll, college or travel). 

Other assignors I work for, some charge assigning fees, some do not. I know several who not only are collecting $10-20 per game from the league, but then they double dip to the umpire and hit them for $3-5 per game. 

Regarding the OP regarding training. Our association does a 3 man, 2 man, 1 man and cage clinic which is included in the costs. For the 3 man clinic this year, all of our instructors were Ju-co/NAIA/D3/D2/D1 and Minor League umpires. Members are required to attend at least one clinic, or attend a couple of outside approved clinics such as the MLB 1 day camp. Many of us work some HS winter leagues which are assigned 1 man but quite often end up being 3 man. 3 for the cost of 1. Often our rating committee folks will come out to watch these games and do evals on the umpires. We have in the past ran these where we rotate 6-9 guys through one game for eval purposes. 

I also work HS Water Polo... our membership fee is $100 per season (so $200/yr for boys and girls) and $140 per season ($280) to the assignor. Game fees are $60/game for Jv/Frosh soph only and $70/game for Varsity only (non-tournament) games. If you have a Frosh/JV/Varsity (3 games) the fee is $140, if JV/Varsity only the fee is $105. Tournaments are $48/game for Frosh/JV and $51/game for varsity. Keep in mind games run roughly 45 minutes, I walk on the side of the pool and only move roughly 35 feet side to side as the ball goes up and down the pool. Every game has 2 officials barring some disaster. In addition to the membership/assigning fees, I had to buy a pair of white shoes ($20 at Ross), white pants (another $25) a whistle ($6.95) and a yellow/red card for another $4.  Not exactly the same 'all in' amounts for baseball officiating.

I agree with @JonnyCat that the fees are getting out of hand. It kills me that we are charged to join each year but then do not get new rule books except for every other year. It kills me that NFHS charges its officials a fee just to have digital access to the rules they expect us to utilize when officiating their games when this should 100% be free for us to access. I agree that the assignor should be paid by the schools he is doing the assigning for and not by the umpires. When you figure for a plate assignment I am walking onto the field wearing at least $750 worth of stuff, just to do the game, the additional fees grind my gears.

 

 

[umpstu]

5 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Our HS unit only assigns HS and some pre-season HS games. Our membership fee is $185 if you signup by a specific date and then it goes up, I think to $205? If you refer a new member, you get a $25 credit (up to $50) off your membership cost. The fees covers NASO insurance which from what I recall runs roughly $100 per official. The rest of the funds go to paying our Secretary and IC which are paid positions, purchasing rule books (nice that FED charges us a fee just to download their books to officiate their games), case books and providing the all important CBUA patch we all have to wear. The fee helps fund scholar-shipping new officials who cannot afford the joining costs as well as funding our pizza party at the end of the season.

Members are required to purchase a CIF logoed hat which runs roughly $20 in addition to only 4 approved shirts. Our assigning fees are $4 per slot, which of course comes out of our game fees after the fact. So all in all, if you cover 25 games, the cost to you as an umpire just to work HS games in our CIF association is roughly $300 without adding in transportation, uniform or equipment costs. Game fee's for varsity this season are $92. The pre-season games the association is just throwing on Arbiter for self-assign and there are no fees. Teams are paying roughly $80 for one umpire at the plate. Other than this sort of high school assigning, there is no other levels assigned by my HS unit (pony, ll, college or travel). 

Other assignors I work for, some charge assigning fees, some do not. I know several who not only are collecting $10-20 per game from the league, but then they double dip to the umpire and hit them for $3-5 per game. 

Regarding the OP regarding training. Our association does a 3 man, 2 man, 1 man and cage clinic which is included in the costs. For the 3 man clinic this year, all of our instructors were Ju-co/NAIA/D3/D2/D1 and Minor League umpires. Members are required to attend at least one clinic, or attend a couple of outside approved clinics such as the MLB 1 day camp. Many of us work some HS winter leagues which are assigned 1 man but quite often end up being 3 man. 3 for the cost of 1. Often our rating committee folks will come out to watch these games and do evals on the umpires. We have in the past ran these where we rotate 6-9 guys through one game for eval purposes. 

I also work HS Water Polo... our membership fee is $100 per season (so $200/yr for boys and girls) and $140 per season ($280) to the assignor. Game fees are $60/game for Jv/Frosh soph only and $70/game for Varsity only (non-tournament) games. If you have a Frosh/JV/Varsity (3 games) the fee is $140, if JV/Varsity only the fee is $105. Tournaments are $48/game for Frosh/JV and $51/game for varsity. Keep in mind games run roughly 45 minutes, I walk on the side of the pool and only move roughly 35 feet side to side as the ball goes up and down the pool. Every game has 2 officials barring some disaster. In addition to the membership/assigning fees, I had to buy a pair of white shoes ($20 at Ross), white pants (another $25) a whistle ($6.95) and a yellow/red card for another $4.  Not exactly the same 'all in' amounts for baseball officiating.

I agree with @JonnyCat that the fees are getting out of hand. It kills me that we are charged to join each year but then do not get new rule books except for every other year. It kills me that NFHS charges its officials a fee just to have digital access to the rules they expect us to utilize when officiating their games when this should 100% be free for us to access. I agree that the assignor should be paid by the schools he is doing the assigning for and not by the umpires. When you figure for a plate assignment I am walking onto the field wearing at least $750 worth of stuff, just to do the game, the additional fees grind my gears.

 

 

Down in the Coachella Valley we paid $100 for fees this year.  That paid for a CIF hat, patch and books.  Also helps to pay for the arbiter site.  Umpires pay the assigner $4 per game.  And I admit I an a gear hound and spend way too much each year on my equipment, although I do search out the bargains.

 

[The Man in Blue]

Illinois High School Association charges $70 for your first sport, $20 for your second sport, and $15 for any sport after that.  We used to get rule books, case books, and a patch for each sport every year.  Now we get rule books and case books every other year.  One patch when you first sign up, and you can buy more.  (Most people take their shirts to local places to have the IHSA logos embroidered.)  

Around here, I mostly stay away from the local associations.  Every few years I might toss them the $20 or so to join, but I haven't found that they serve any purpose beyond being a social club.  They do put on the state required clinics, but I honestly prefer to travel to clinics in other areas since it is usually the same old boys playing with the same old toys here.  $20 gets you on a mailing list for when people need last minute replacements (which, if you've been around long enough, you're going to get anyway).  It gets you invited to an annual dinner with the "in crowd" (which you have to pay for) and a golf tournament (which, again, is the same people hanging out every year).

Assigning is a mixed bag.  Some schools do their own contracting, while some athletic directors will hire an assignor.  For the sports I do (baseball, softball, volleyball) there are four assignors around here, most of whom are those same old boys mentioned above.  Every few years, three of them work out an arrangement between themselves to divvy things up and "organize," and then there is a falling out and it scatters all over again.  After a few years, they try to put things back together again under the guise of the association.  (At one point, one of them pissed enough people off that he went and started his own association.  He also tries to charge for assignments, which doesn't fly around here.)

The fourth assignor is not part of that, and he is the guy that I will work for in a heart beat.  He may not have the "top schools" or the highest paying schools, but he is the only one who is doing it to give back to the communities, rather than for his own pocketbook or social status.  Of course, he doesn't do it for free, though; the schools pay him a small stipend.  He is saying he is retiring and talked to me about taking over for him.  We'll see.  

 

 

 

[HokieUmp]

I've worked in three states in the US part of my career - Virginia, Texas, and now North Carolina - and I've yet to get paid for any scrimmages.  I guess my Texas experience is the same as the other Texas guys that posted - where the chapter gets money - but I've never been part of that dealing.  I would just get an assignment, and off I'd go.  Virginia?  No idea.

I haven't actually had a scrimmage in North Carolina, but based on context in emails, they'll be unpaid.

In all of these places, there'd be 3-7 guys put at a site, and we'd work 2-man, rotating in and out.  Not really a long day.

[Mister B]

Here in Oregon we pay the OSAA $75 for the first sport and $43 for each after that per year. That includes rulebooks and a patch. But games are assigned by association. In Portland, I am a member of PBUA (HS and Adult baseball), GPVOA (HS and youth volleyball, some college lines) and NYBUA (Youth Baseball) each is about $35/year, your fee pays for training, hat, possibly shirt, background check. Baseball training happens in camps, and first years usually work with a veteran. For volleyball, we worked with a couple large HSs and set up some nets and let the girls (No HS Boys volleyball in OR) play while we rotated after a couple serves to work other spots (R1, R2, lines, scorebook) with other partners and instructors. 

We pay 10% per game to the association, this pays the officers and assigner, pays for reftown (assigning and paying site) and some fun stuff. The volleyball association also takes an additional 1% and puts it into a scholarship fund for girls that show great sportsmanship and love of the game. They are selected by the officials. 

HS also pays milage. But it's based on the distance from the middle of Portland, to the school. So you can do well if you work/live outside of Portland and work games near there. I work at a HS, but I can't work games there, which sucks because it would be super convenient, as I'd have access to a place to change. 

Payment is up to the association, PBUA pays every 3 weeks, GPVOA pays every month and NYBUA pays every week. All do direct deposit. They all also pay regardless of whether of not they have been paid for that game. We can wear any shirt in baseball, although PBUA prefers Black or Delta, but nobody will say anything as long as you match with your partner. Volleyball requires a white or teal polo shirt, partners must match. HS requires patch on sleeve, so most people use magnets. 

I really don't think we should pay the state to be a HS official. Especially not $75. There are other associations throughout the state for HS sports, and I don't know how they work, but I'd guess it's similar. Most of them use reftown instead of arbiter. It's a local product and works pretty well. 

[kylehutson]

On 2/4/2023 at 1:21 PM, The Man in Blue said:

He is saying he is retiring and talked to me about taking over for him.  We'll see.