Another oldie

[MT73]

This happened a few years back and I just read in 151 ways to Ruin a Baseball Game that we were wrong—but am curious what you all think.

12U—OBR

R1 &R2–2outs.

I’m BU in the C

Ground ball to F6–he throws to first.

‘Ball beats the runner but I think F3’s foot is off the base.

‘Before I make the call I ask PU—did he hold the bag?

No response so I ask again—no response so I call B/R out.

‘Defense runs off the field ( their coach knew what happened and hustled them in) and then my partner says, “ Yes, he was off the bag”

I cringe now thinking about it but I changed my call to safe, had the defense brought back and advanced the runners one base.

How should something like this be handled?

 

[Kevin_K]

Make your call. If you are 100% certain F3 held the bag tell everyone as you are making your call: " He held it!" or something like that.

If you are not certain, make your call as you would normally. If anyone asks you to get help, call time if necessary and conference with your partner(s) so only the umpires are a part of the conversation. I am not a fan of yelling across the field to get input on a play. If no one asks you about a pulled foot or a swipe tag, the call belongs to you and stands as it was judged.

[SH0102]

Kevin basically nailed it; I’d just say to clarify about “call it like normal” (because at the time, how you called it was your normal response)...

When you get straight lined and can’t tell if they held bag, make your call based on the timing.  If F3 possesses the ball, you say out if he possessed it before the BR got to first, or safe if not.

If you rule safe on timing, pulled foot is irrelevant.  If you ruled out, the offense head coach can ask you to get help...the rest is spelled out perfectly by Kevin

[MT73]

My issue was that this was the last out of the inning and the defense—to avoid an appeal—rushed off the field.

‘According to Mr. Childress you cannot change an out call to safe after 3 outs with runners on because you have no idea where to place the runners.

I am asking in this situation should I have not gone for help once the defense was running off the field?

[maven]

First, wtf was PU thinking in choosing not to answer? 

But whatever. Second, if you've gone with the "ask first" rather than "call first" mechanic, and everyone is waiting for PU, well, make 'em wait. Eventually, PU will answer the damn question—start walking over there if needed, keep asking—and get your answer. As it was, you showed yourself up by making it appear that you were guessing (and PU then nailed the coffin by confirming exactly that). 

And third: coach running his fielders off to "avoid an appeal" isn't a thing. If the O coach wants to ask me to get help (and if I need it), I'll get it, though of course there's a time limit for that. (And, fielders should be running off after the 3rd out anyway, so I shouldn't notice any difference here...).

Allow me to vent a pet peeve: umpires who take a nap between innings. The biggest time waster in youth baseball is between-inning warmups. Kids stroll off the field. Once the field is *completely* empty, sometimes for a minute or two, kids stroll on the field. F1 takes 15 minutes to throw 5 warmup pitches. You know what I'm talking about.

Do the math: if you allow 5 minutes each half inning and I allow 2, I'm saving 3 minutes each half inning. For a full 7-inning game, I'm saving 3 * 13 = 39 minutes of wasted time. So you're still out there after 2 hours, and I'm driving home in 1:40, for exactly the same amount of baseball. 

[Replacematt]

16 minutes ago, maven said:

Second, if you've gone with the "ask first" rather than "call first" mechanic, and everyone is waiting for PU, well, make 'em wait. Eventually, PU will answer the damn question—start walking over there if needed, keep asking—and get your answer. As it was, you showed yourself up by making it appear that you were guessing (and PU then nailed the coffin by confirming exactly that). 

I have yet to hear of a benefit of asking for help before a call that outweighs the risks. The one argument I've heard is that it results in one call and looks more smooth. The largest risk, as we see here, is that the wheels fall off the wagon when it becomes obvious no umpire is sure of what actually happened. There's a reason Jimmy calls it patchwork umpiring. (The second largest risk is that it now looks like PU can overrule and that'll be requested throughout the game.)

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, MT73 said:

My issue was that this was the last out of the inning and the defense—to avoid an appeal—rushed off the field.

‘

 

The "appeals" that can't happen after the defense leaves the field are appeals for base-running errors (missed bases; bases left too soon on a caught fly).

 

You are describing "getting help" not an "appeal."  So, yes, if you fix it, you can send the defense back out.  Whether you should fix it or not is a different issue.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

The "appeals" that can't happen after the defense leaves the field are appeals for base-running errors (missed bases; bases left too soon on a caught fly).

 

You are describing "getting help" not an "appeal."  So, yes, if you fix it, you can send the defense back out.  Whether you should fix it or not is a different issue.

Surprisingly, the getting help "appeal" is the subject of a myth that I was stunned to hear from a few HS level umpires. If the defense "appeals" to the wrong umpire to get help they have lost any further right to appeal. That is, ask the proper umpire if he wishes to get help. And apparently from the OP other appeal restrictions exist in the mind of some umps. I would ask @MT73 if that myth is common among his cohorts?

[maven]

A cautionary tale for those who cry about "semantics" when corrected in their word choice. Definitions matter.

[MT73]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Surprisingly, the getting help "appeal" is the subject of a myth that I was stunned to hear from a few HS level umpires. If the defense "appeals" to the wrong umpire to get help they have lost any further right to appeal. That is, ask the proper umpire if he wishes to get help. And apparently from the OP other appeal restrictions exist in the mind of some umps. I would ask @MT73 if that myth is common among his cohorts?

I joined and trained a 14 week course  with a highl level association in Long Island in 2008.

‘All of the clinicians were college or minor league umpires and former MLB umpire Justin Klemm  was a guest instructor.

‘We were taught the “ask first” mechanic and it worked very well with our people.

‘I also used it at CDP with good effect.

In this game I was working in a different association who’s training was not very extensive.

And my partner, bar none, was the worst that I ever had.

‘Every call he made, nearly every pitch, turned into an argument.

Anyway,I wrongly assumed that he knew the mechanic—his dumbfounded expression convinced me to never use it again without a pregame.

 

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, MT73 said:

I joined and trained a 14 week course  with a highl level association in Long Island in 2008.

‘All of the clinicians were college or minor league umpires and former MLB umpire Justin Clem was a guest instructor.

‘We were taught the “ask first” mechanic and it worked very well with our people.

‘I also used it at CDP with good effect.

In this game I was working in a different association who’s training was not very extensive.

And my partner, bar none, was the worst that I ever had.

‘Every call he made, nearly every pitch, turned into an argument.

Anyway,I wrongly assumed that he knew the mechanic—his dumbfounded expression convinced me to never use it again without a pregame.

 

I think you missed the point. Being asked to get help is not an appeal. There is no time or fielder location that restricts the "appeal" (request) to the umpire or his response which it seems you believe to be the case in your OP. Do you believe a request to get help is an appeal constrained by the appeal rules? 

[MT73]

No—I don’t.

And by appeal I meant going for help.

I misspoke.

‘Happens a lot at age 68

 

[Richvee]

17 minutes ago, MT73 said:

I joined and trained a 14 week course  with a highl level association in Long Island in 2008.

‘All of the clinicians were college or minor league umpires and former MLB umpire Justin Clem was a guest instructor.

‘We were taught the “ask first” mechanic and it worked very well with our people.

‘I also used it at CDP with good effect.

In this game I was working in a different association who’s training was not very extensive.

And my partner, bar none, was the worst that I ever had.

‘Every call he made, nearly every pitch, turned into an argument.

Anyway,I wrongly assumed that he knew the mechanic—his dumbfounded expression convinced me to never use it again without a pregame.

 

This is a MUST PREGAME subject. Especially if I’m PU. I’ve worked with a host of well trained umpires, and opinions on the “correct” procedures for this vary. Basically, I’ll pregame this and it’s pretty much up to BU what he wants to do. Personally, I’m strongly entrenched in the BU makes a call first” camp. That said, if I’m PU, and partner likes the “ ask first” mechanic, that’s what we’re going with that day. If I’m BU it really doesn’t matter what my PU prefers, because I’ll be making my call without asking him first. 

[MT73]

1 minute ago, Richvee said:

This is a MUST PREGAME subject. Especially if I’m PU. I’ve worked with a host of well trained umpires, and opinions on the “correct” procedures for this vary. Basically, I’ll pregame this and it’s pretty much up to BU what he wants to do. Personally, I’m strongly entrenched in the BU makes a call first” camp. That said, if I’m PU, and partner likes the “ ask first” mechanic, that’s what we’re going with that day. If I’m BU it really doesn’t matter what my PU prefers, because I’ll be making my call without asking him first. 

Thanks.

So if not 100% sure is it better to call him safe rather than out since it is much less of an issue to change safe to out.

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Thanks.

So if not 100% sure is it better to call him safe rather than out since it is much less of an issue to change safe to out.

Quite the opposite.

If you call someone safe, that means you saw a reason they were safe--you saw space between the foot and the bag or the tag and the runner, which means that you have no business going for help. On the other hand, it's possible that you can see something that looks like an out but isn't. 

[Richvee]

2 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Thanks.

So if not 100% sure is it better to call him safe rather than out since it is much less of an issue to change safe to out.

Not me. Someone mentioned earlier, I’ll go with the timing if I’m straight lined on the pulled foot. If it was indeed pulled, the BR and 1b coach will surely let you know in a hurry that they think you missed the pulled foot. Then, conference with PU, and see if he had the pulled foot. 
 

I don’t see placing runners as a issue on this play. BR safe, or out, no one else is running anywhere past the base they’re on. 

[MT73]

11 hours ago, noumpere said:

The "appeals" that can't happen after the defense leaves the field are appeals for base-running errors (missed bases; bases left too soon on a caught fly).

 

You are describing "getting help" not an "appeal."  So, yes, if you fix it, you can send the defense back out.  Whether you should fix it or not is a different issue.

Yes—whether or not to fix it in this situation was my main question.

I know we can—but should we.

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, MT73 said:

No—I don’t.

And by appeal I meant going for help.

I misspoke.

‘Happens a lot at age 68

 

I’m 74 so I understand. But I’m concerned that the myth of getting help as being an appeal and is subject to appeal restrictions exists among umpire groups. As you have read I have been exposed to umpires who are under this misconception. I asked if others in your cohort were under the same misconception. 

[MT73]

No.

‘It was not taught as an appeal but as going for help.

‘Poor wording on my part.

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, MT73 said:

I joined and trained a 14 week course  with a highl level association in Long Island in 2008.

‘All of the clinicians were college or minor league umpires and former MLB umpire Justin Klemm  was a guest instructor.

‘We were taught the “ask first” mechanic and it worked very well with our people.

‘I also used it at CDP with good effect.

In this game I was working in a different association who’s training was not very extensive.

And my partner, bar none, was the worst that I ever had.

‘Every call he made, nearly every pitch, turned into an argument.

Anyway,I wrongly assumed that he knew the mechanic—his dumbfounded expression convinced me to never use it again without a pregame.

 

The problem with going for help first is that PU might not have help.  In the OP, he needs to stay home, and he's busy watching R2 round third -- watching for OBS and to be sure R2 touches the base.  Heck, he might even be watching R1 round second for the same reasons -- and  because BU can't possibly see that (even though it's technically BU's call).

IF you go for help first, take a quick glance at PU to see if he has help / information.  If your timing is good, the coaches and players won't notice if you then make a call on your own.

[Catch18]

The problem with going for help first is that PU might not have help.

Top notch point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dntrllycare]

15 hours ago, MT73 said:

Yes—whether or not to fix it in this situation was my main question.

I know we can—but should we.

Yes. That’s a textbook situation for getting help. 
 

And as for the “ask first” mechanic: 2008 was several lifetimes ago in umpiring and guest instructors don’t even necessarily teach their own material. It’s not a good mechanic in 2021.

[kylehutson]

On 4/25/2021 at 12:49 AM, MT73 said:

How should something like this be handled?

2x4 in the parking lot after the game?

[Aging_Arbiter]

17 hours ago, kylehutson said:

2x4 in the parking lot after the game?

nope...............lumber is too expensive on umpire pay.

[Dr. Blue]

On 4/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, Richvee said:

This is a MUST PREGAME subject. Especially if I’m PU. I’ve worked with a host of well trained umpires, and opinions on the “correct” procedures for this vary. Basically, I’ll pregame this and it’s pretty much up to BU what he wants to do. Personally, I’m strongly entrenched in the BU makes a call first” camp. That said, if I’m PU, and partner likes the “ ask first” mechanic, that’s what we’re going with that day. If I’m BU it really doesn’t matter what my PU prefers, because I’ll be making my call without asking him first. 

Richvee has it absolutely correct here. 

 

Unless you specifically talk about this situation pregame (which I wouldn't), you need to make your own call as a BU based on what you see. If coach comes out to complain and you aren't 100% sure with your call, then fine, grab the PU and discuss.

[The Man in Blue]

On 4/25/2021 at 10:36 PM, Jimurray said:

I’m 74 so I understand. But I’m concerned that the myth of getting help as being an appeal and is subject to appeal restrictions exists among umpire groups. As you have read I have been exposed to umpires who are under this misconception. I asked if others in your cohort were under the same misconception. 

 

I would say the question posited is a matter of regional customs, but I would argue strongly against most of what was said.

I know the less said in the plate meeting the better, but I do include this with mine: "If you have a question on a call, ask for time and talk to the official who made the call.  We will provide an explanation or get together if we need to to sort it out."

Too many times I have had a coach come at me for my partner's call ... I usually give him a blank stare and ask "Why are you talking to me?  I didn't do it."  OK, maybe I'm a little kinder than that with my words ... but my point is I use this time to try to educate the coach (again) on proper procedure.  "Coach, you may go talk to him/her and if he/she needs anything from me we will get together."

If the word "appeal comes up, I typically explain the difference between "getting help" and "an appeal play which is defined in the rule book."  There have been a few times when I have shut down a coach who was acting up and asking for "an appeal" and I just said no and left it there.  If he had asked for "help" he would have gotten it.  I mean, he knows everything, so he knows what he is asking for, right?