kids in the dugout

[BigVic69]

Presuming the baseball season begins in Texas on June 1st (phase 3 of our measured return to normalcy).

What standards are we (umpires) to assume when dealing with little league?

Sanitizing stations in the dugouts, All kids in the dugout, masks?

I was being asked for an opinion from a local LL as they have a month to get prepared.

Thanks for the input.

some leagues are talking about sectioning off a part of the bleachers for players to spread out more.  

I can only guess this to be a logistical nightmare for the coaches and for umpires to keep the game moving.

[JonnyCat]

It really isn't our jobs, and shouldn't be placed on the umpire. It is up to the local leagues to formulate a plan and implement it. If the leagues need to station additional volunteers in the dugout to administer whatever protocols they deem necessary, then so be it.

We're there to adjudicate the game. I can't and shouldn't be held responsible for any dugout related Covid19 mitigation measures during the game. That's the league's responsibility. Yes, I will comply with reasonable measures, but I'm really not the Covid19 police. Nor do I want to be. If they want to saddle me with some ridiculous addtional responsibilities under the guise of "safety," then I'm probably going to take an extended summer vacation. I'll decide if my safety is being protected or compromised with any additional league mandates.

JMHO.

[yawetag]

They need to get guidance from professionals. This would be state medical professionals and people from Little League. As @JonnyCat says, this isn't the UIC's job.

[LRZ]

I agree that umpires should not get involved in this. I would also add that, unless you are an aerosol scientist or medical doctor, you should not be giving advice on this issue, as you may be opening yourself up to liability. (Yes, I am a lawyer.)

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, BigVic69 said:

Presuming the baseball season begins in Texas on June 1st (phase 3 of our measured return to normalcy).

What standards are we (umpires) to assume when dealing with little league?

Sanitizing stations in the dugouts, All kids in the dugout, masks?

I was being asked for an opinion from a local LL as they have a month to get prepared.

Thanks for the input.

some leagues are talking about sectioning off a part of the bleachers for players to spread out more.  

I can only guess this to be a logistical nightmare for the coaches and for umpires to keep the game moving.

You are to assume the standards you are assigned, and I would say you have a responsibility to put up your hand if your are told to do something unreasonable (or just abstain from umping) - you may need to wear a face covering, you may need to manage the distance at the plate meeting, and you may have to follow a set of rules for your own behavior.   You may be required to enforce new "equipment" rules...eg. if all players are required to wear face coverings like they're required to wear helmets or matching uniforms.

Anything beyond that would be either you overstepping your boundaries, or someone unreasonably expanding your boundaries.  And at some point you're gonna have to tell the powers that be to pound sand.

If you were to offer your opinion, make sure it is known to be your opinion (not advice) as a layperson, and is meant to be conversational, and not one of an official nature.

 

 

Frankly, I think this is going to be a logistical nightmare, and just not workable.   Unlike golf or tennis, baseball is just too difficult to manage - it's one thing for pros to do it...a whole other set of problems with amateurs, kids and volunteers.  Games will take six hours to complete. 

Unfortunately, LLWS has been officially cancelled now.  Doesn't mean local organizations won't continue, but it will be extremely limited.

[The Man in Blue]

The best advice (as I said on another forum):  see you in 2021!

I don’t care what plan you come up with, it is not going to be followed ... especially by a bunch of kids (who haven’t seen each other in quite awhile) playing an athletic game.  Hell, you can’t even get adults to follow three basic rules in grocery stores.  And what kid is going to want to come to the park and stay six feet away from everybody, not have meaningful contact with his/her friends, and just go through the rote mechanics of a game?  (Sounds like an idea cooked up by adults.)

My old granpappy used to say “If ain’t worth doing’ right, it ain’t worth doin’.”  If you are having to come up with all this cockamamie stuff, you ain’t doin’ it right ... so it ain’t worth doin’.

[yawetag]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'll say it anyway.

Any youth baseball league that runs a season this year can never again claim safety is their top priority.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, yawetag said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'll say it anyway.

Any youth baseball league that runs a season this year can never again claim safety is their top priority.

May be unpopular but it's an absolute truth.

It's really easy to give everyone what they want.  Real integrity and leadership comes in doing what is right against the popular tide.

[Kevin_K]

6 hours ago, LRZ said:

I agree that umpires should not get involved in this. I would also add that, unless you are an aerosol scientist or medical doctor, you should not be giving advice on this issue, as you may be opening yourself up to liability. (Yes, I am a lawyer.)

How do they fit them in the can?

[LRZ]

42 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

How do they fit them in the can?

Carefully.

[Lou B]

4 hours ago, yawetag said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'll say it anyway.

Any youth baseball league that runs a season this year can never again claim safety is their top priority.

Just to play Devil's Advocate:

If, in a certain area, schools re-open, allowing students back together, and, restaurants and stores re-open such that things are "almost" back to normal, you'd be against a local youth baseball league playing a limited season?

It's May 1st and things are a lot different than they were on April 1st.  Who knows what things are going to be like in a month? Six weeks? ...?

Maybe things won't improve enough to let the kids play, maybe they will???

[SJA]

Personally, I think that each of us should depend on our "gut feeling" for our own safety. I damn sure am not about to rely on someone else saying it's safer now eg. LL, Local, State, or Fed Govt or anyone else. They're not the ones that will pay the penalty if they're wrong.  . . . once again, "You don't grow old by being a fool"

[LRZ]

Two things strike me.

(1) This virus seems to be something new, something neither scientists nor doctors fully understand yet, and they are groping towards knowledge, solutions, vaccines, cures. There is, in my view, still way too uncertainty and guesswork about how the virus works, about how it can be treated or prevented.

(2) Scientists may not know the medicine; doctors may not know the science; politicians, economists and the general public probably do not know either. To the extent that decisions to play ball are made for reasons other than science or medicine, those decisions are either unfounded or, at best, premature.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, Lou B said:

Just to play Devil's Advocate:

If, in a certain area, schools re-open, allowing students back together, and, restaurants and stores re-open such that things are "almost" back to normal, you'd be against a local youth baseball league playing a limited season?

It's May 1st and things are a lot different than they were on April 1st.  Who knows what things are going to be like in a month? Six weeks? ...?

Maybe things won't improve enough to let the kids play, maybe they will???

In Illinois, we are projected to still be two weeks away from our peak.  We added 3,137 cases yesterday ... IMO, that says more about our testing than the actual disease ... but it shows that our trend is not going in a direction that makes me likely to “play ball.”

If Indiana, Iowa, or Missouri decide to play, I can guaran-damn-tee somebody from Illinois is going to (try to) take a team.  Their numbers aren’t as bad as ours ... I’m sure the virus will just give up when it hits the border.

[yawetag]

18 hours ago, LRZ said:

(2) Scientists may not know the medicine; doctors may not know the science; politicians, economists and the general public probably do not know either. To the extent that decisions to play ball are made for reasons other than science or medicine, those decisions are either unfounded or, at best, premature.

One of the wisest things I've heard recently, and more related to journalists looking for sources: If you're talking to a doctor or a scientist about COVID and they don't say "I don't know..." or something similar during the conversation, you need to find a new doctor or scientist to source. So much about this is unknown that anyone who thinks they have the answers most definitely doesn't.

[maven]

I recommend that plate umpires wear a mask.

You're welcome. 

[umpstu]

On 5/1/2020 at 2:59 PM, Kevin_K said:

How do they fit them in the can?

Stop  it!  No more sarcasm from you!

[umpstu]

8 hours ago, maven said:

I recommend that plate umpires wear a mask.

You're welcome. 

What is with all the sarcasm with this subject?

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/1/2020 at 2:59 PM, Kevin_K said:

How do they fit them in the can?

Tell Prince Albert to scoot over?

[maven]

12 hours ago, umpstu said:

What is with all the sarcasm with this subject?

Not sarcasm: I intended to hurt nobody's feelings.

Not facetiousness or any form of irony at all: I meant what I said.

Just a little (very little) wordplay. It's punchy around here.

Also: I took the answer to the original question to have already been given. We'll have league- or state-adopted health and safety regs to enforce going forward, and we'll do that. We don't have to (and shouldn't) make up our own rules.

Umpires not comfortable with those enhanced safety regs should not officiate. My state has, like many others, expanded unemployment to cover self-employed independent contractors (such as officials); so those who need the income could do that.

[Vegas_Ump]

On 5/1/2020 at 11:20 AM, yawetag said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'll say it anyway.

Any youth baseball league that runs a season this year can never again claim safety is their top priority.

I hear ya!  But here's a different perspective!  When the State of Washington crafts "relocation camps" for COVID-19 positive patients, I worry.  When the governor of California closes down beaches where people who want to surf and kayak out in the ocean--thousands of yards from anybody else--, I worry.  When it's OK to go into a tattoo parlor but you can't go into a liquor store, I worry.  When a state governor pronounces a lockdown and then extends it past 30-days (actually violating federal law), I worry.  

And here's what I am worrying about:  All of these pronouncements are NOT backed up by information (at the very least) or science.  What's being said is "We need to contine quarantine!"  But what's not being said is the reason why!  (Is the country that stupid that they won't understand facts?)  No explanations have been forthcoming, and the story on this virus changes daily!  Worse yet, speculation is filling in the information vacuum, and that's aggravating people.

So how could it be that the Chiefs of the NCAA, NBA, MLB, MLS, NFL, Little League all simultaneously suspended operations in a heart beat?  There must be something else going on that we do not know, and Mustafa Monde is not telling us.

If we should truly cancel the year 2020 in sports (and other enterprises), there is likely to be a good reason--maybe even a great reason!  And information supporting that reason would support Yaw's point.  But we are being treated like mushrooms:  Kept in the dark, and you know what they feed you!

Sorry for the rant!  But I want sports to resume--even with some modifications for safety.  But the elites are holding the rulebook and are not sharing it.  

We as umpires are expected to use excellent (not just "good") judgment.  Our skills in exercising judgment are based in rules, and the dialog here on this board that explains Approve Rulings or deeper understandings.  That is the whole point. 

Respectfully,

Mike Poore, Col USAF (Ret), Las Vegas, NV-4

[The Man in Blue]

@Vegas_Ump --

Kayaking and surfing out in the ocean is not the problem ... it is the hundreds or thousands of people who cram the parking lot (and surrounding businesses) to get there.  It is the people who are travelling from other areas to get there who potentially further the spread.  Unfortunately, people have shown they cannot be trusted to act responsibly and respectfully of others.

As for tattoo parlors vs. liquor stores ... I would say that is a reflection of local values and thus is questionable.  Liquor stores in Illinois never closed, but tattoo parlors did.    Personally, I think barbers and hair dressers would be able to operate safely, yet they seem to remain on everybody's "must stay closed" list.  Yet, people have repeatedly shown they can't even follow three basic rules in grocery stores (in my area anyway), so I get it.

As for your claim about the lack of science ... this is a new virus that we are learning about.  Unfortunately, we live in a post-fact world that has allowed morons-with-a-platform to dilute the reality we live in.  This is not the flu or a cold.  It is in the same viral family, but it is not the same.  We do/did not know what it would do or how it would react.  We have theories, suspicions, and we can draw on knowledge of similar/past experience.  However we allowed non-scientists to taint the waters with their own ignorant rhetoric and know many people do not know what to believe.  There is hard science out there.  There are changes in that scientific knowledge as we learn new things.  You just have to weed out the BS that is being spewed by people who are pushing personal agendas and not scientific knowledge.  The other challenge we face in discerning facts is that the people we should be listening to have decided to kowtow to the ... OK, trying not to be political ... they are having to temper they say against the temper.  I'll leave it at that.

I will admit, in my opinion, our own CDC dropped the ball in the beginning.  This was due to them being stripped, decimated, and neutered by politics.  There was an informal group of medical professionals who pretty well had this whole thing nailed and saw the early warning signs.  (Google the "Red Dawn e-mails")  That doesn't mean we should entirely throw out anything the CDC has to say.

As for sports all cancelling and the numerous "lockdowns" ... it was an immediate knee-jerk reaction.  Possibly an over-reaction in some areas.  Why did we need that immediate reaction?  Again, trying to avoid politics, but our leadership decided they didn't need to follow the playbook or pay attention to any knowledge (emergency management and public health of all regards have been preparing for this for a number of years now) beyond their own personal interests.  I will agree with you that I think we have it wrong by maintaining that immediate reaction across the board, however, as I said up above though, people have shown they cannot act responsibly or respectfully for others.  We can't work towards a rational solution because we are still busy reacting to the fires people are setting.  The reason it hasn't been worse though, is because of the immediate reaction.

I see people saying "this is draconian" ... no, not yet.  It will be though.  New Mexico just barricaded and entire town -- no one in or out -- with the blessing of the mayors (one outgoing, one incoming).  Lockdown from 5pm to 8am every day.  Maybe that is the answer ... loosen things up but react with a swift and much heavier hand.  Then the people can complain about real repercussions to their decision.

I agree with the 30-day thing ... Governors, mayors, county board chairs all should be following the powers granted them, emergency or otherwise.  And the boards, councils, and legislative bodies need to be doing their job to help support or act as appropriate checks and balances ... not just playing politics.

And ... of course ... thank you for your service @Vegas_Ump.  I am sorry for the current state of the world that you were willing to protect for us.

 

Sorry if my feelings or beliefs offend anybody.  My wife is now working on a COVID floor at her hospital, so I am probably being a little hyper-sensitive.  This is after one moron nurse at a nursing home convinced her friend to lie about her pre-shift health screening.  She was running a fever, but due to her benefits (or lack of) felt she needed to work.  Her friend fudged the numbers and let her in.  So far they have had 90+ positive tests and 8 deaths.  Illinois still has not hit our peak with 100+ deaths each day on most days this past week.

Back to day drinking ... too heavy of a day in my mind.  

[umpstu]

44 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

@Vegas_Ump --

Kayaking and surfing out in the ocean is not the problem ... it is the hundreds or thousands of people who cram the parking lot (and surrounding businesses) to get there.  It is the people who are travelling from other areas to get there who potentially further the spread.  Unfortunately, people have shown they cannot be trusted to act responsibly and respectfully of others.

As for tattoo parlors vs. liquor stores ... I would say that is a reflection of local values and thus is questionable.  Liquor stores in Illinois never closed, but tattoo parlors did.    Personally, I think barbers and hair dressers would be able to operate safely, yet they seem to remain on everybody's "must stay closed" list.  Yet, people have repeatedly shown they can't even follow three basic rules in grocery stores (in my area anyway), so I get it.

As for your claim about the lack of science ... this is a new virus that we are learning about.  Unfortunately, we live in a post-fact world that has allowed morons-with-a-platform to dilute the reality we live in.  This is not the flu or a cold.  It is in the same viral family, but it is not the same.  We do/did not know what it would do or how it would react.  We have theories, suspicions, and we can draw on knowledge of similar/past experience.  However we allowed non-scientists to taint the waters with their own ignorant rhetoric and know many people do not know what to believe.  There is hard science out there.  There are changes in that scientific knowledge as we learn new things.  You just have to weed out the BS that is being spewed by people who are pushing personal agendas and not scientific knowledge.  The other challenge we face in discerning facts is that the people we should be listening to have decided to kowtow to the ... OK, trying not to be political ... they are having to temper they say against the temper.  I'll leave it at that.

I will admit, in my opinion, our own CDC dropped the ball in the beginning.  This was due to them being stripped, decimated, and neutered by politics.  There was an informal group of medical professionals who pretty well had this whole thing nailed and saw the early warning signs.  (Google the "Red Dawn e-mails")  That doesn't mean we should entirely throw out anything the CDC has to say.

As for sports all cancelling and the numerous "lockdowns" ... it was an immediate knee-jerk reaction.  Possibly an over-reaction in some areas.  Why did we need that immediate reaction?  Again, trying to avoid politics, but our leadership decided they didn't need to follow the playbook or pay attention to any knowledge (emergency management and public health of all regards have been preparing for this for a number of years now) beyond their own personal interests.  I will agree with you that I think we have it wrong by maintaining that immediate reaction across the board, however, as I said up above though, people have shown they cannot act responsibly or respectfully for others.  We can't work towards a rational solution because we are still busy reacting to the fires people are setting.  The reason it hasn't been worse though, is because of the immediate reaction.

I see people saying "this is draconian" ... no, not yet.  It will be though.  New Mexico just barricaded and entire town -- no one in or out -- with the blessing of the mayors (one outgoing, one incoming).  Lockdown from 5pm to 8am every day.  Maybe that is the answer ... loosen things up but react with a swift and much heavier hand.  Then the people can complain about real repercussions to their decision.

I agree with the 30-day thing ... Governors, mayors, county board chairs all should be following the powers granted them, emergency or otherwise.  And the boards, councils, and legislative bodies need to be doing their job to help support or act as appropriate checks and balances ... not just playing politics.

And ... of course ... thank you for your service @Vegas_Ump.  I am sorry for the current state of the world that you were willing to protect for us.

 

Sorry if my feelings or beliefs offend anybody.  My wife is now working on a COVID floor at her hospital, so I am probably being a little hyper-sensitive.  This is after one moron nurse at a nursing home convinced her friend to lie about her pre-shift health screening.  She was running a fever, but due to her benefits (or lack of) felt she needed to work.  Her friend fudged the numbers and let her in.  So far they have had 90+ positive tests and 8 deaths.  Illinois still has not hit our peak with 100+ deaths each day on most days this past week.

Back to day drinking ... too heavy of a day in my mind.  

Good post.  I am part of that lock down in California and agree with it.  And if you take a look at the numbers it seems to be working in California.  My hat's off to the governor.  I'm currently in Missouri and can't believe the lack of concern towards this virus.  Parents wearing masks in Walmart, but their kids running around without masks.  If people are distancing the virus has a harder time spreading.  That's a fact and science.

 

MSC(SS) USN Retired

[LMSANS]

If you want to discuss Covid-19, then go to Facebook or get it closer to umpiring. Locking this one up