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Guest Jack Strap

Game delay between innings

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Guest Jack Strap

We have a HS coach that whenever the opposing team's pitcher is shutting them down, he tries to slow the game down. When his team comes to bat, he holds a meeting on the field and does not send a batter to the plate for WAY TOO LONG. I would like to keep them from illegally delaying the game by calling penalty strikes. Am I allowed to do this ? Can I keep calling them while he protests the penalty ? What rule should I cite when challenged ? 

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29 minutes ago, Guest Jack Strap said:

We have a HS coach that whenever the opposing team's pitcher is shutting them down, he tries to slow the game down. When his team comes to bat, he holds a meeting on the field and does not send a batter to the plate for WAY TOO LONG. I would like to keep them from illegally delaying the game by calling penalty strikes. Am I allowed to do this ? Can I keep calling them while he protests the penalty ? What rule should I cite when challenged ? 

7-3-1 covers when a penalty strike may be called (infractions by batter). However, since the coach is the ringleader here, you may be interested in Rule 4-4-1, parts b, c, and d.

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Different rule set just noting the same question in LL I believe would fall under 4.15 (f)

in case anyone (like me) was wondering..

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On 2/3/2020 at 2:51 PM, Justin said:

7-3-1 covers when a penalty strike may be called (infractions by batter). However, since the coach is the ringleader here, you may be interested in Rule 4-4-1, parts b, c, and d.

Agree about 7-3-1 (which won't help the OP), but not about 4-4-1. We're to use forfeits as a last resort, and it better be something so horrible that the case makes itself. This routine asshattery from the offense would be nowhere near my line for a forfeit.

First, to the OP: the pace of play is ENTIRELY in the control (and properly so) of the PU. We have authority to enforce all provisions of the rules pertaining to pace of play. This is a pet peeve of mine: I'm especially annoyed by PU's who pay no attention to how much time pitchers take to warm up (should be no more than 1 minute from the 3rd out of the prior half inning). Guys allow 3–4 minutes every half inning, and suddenly a 7-inning game lasts an extra—and utterly worthless—half hour.

I don't allow a meeting of the offense prior to play—much less on the field—at all. When the pitcher's ready, we go. If the coach won't get his team off the field, we should give him a written warning and restrict him to the bench. The next time, eject him. 

This behavior is, BTW, a direct violation of 3-3-1i.

Quote

 

3-3-1: A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not: 

i. be outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense

 

 

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One of my main partners and I pregame this as a pace of play issue and we make sure we address it at the plate meeting.  We time the 60 seconds allowed between innings starting when all infielders have left the field of play.  At 45 seconds, BU puts an arm up and works back towards 1B foul line.  At expiration of 60 seconds, we're calling for a batter if one isn't ready to get in the box, or not allowing further warm-ups by the P if defense is not ready for play.   If a batter does not report in reasonable time (PU judgement), the ball is put in play and a strike can be called - no pitch need be delivered.  Never got that far, but at that point I think the 20-second clock would begin (we always have stopwatch ready for this if needed) and at 5 seconds remaining, another strike could be called if a hitter is not in the box ready (mirroring NCAA).  

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1 hour ago, humanbackstop19 said:

One of my main partners and I pregame this as a pace of play issue...

Yes! Good idea.

1 hour ago, humanbackstop19 said:

...and we make sure we address it at the plate meeting.

Disagree. Plate meeting has 4 quick items, and this is not one of them.

We're always in the right when we enforce the rules (which, I recognize, is more difficult in some places than others due to local "customs").

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1 hour ago, maven said:

Yes! Good idea.

Disagree. Plate meeting has 4 quick items, and this is not one of them.

We're always in the right when we enforce the rules (which, I recognize, is more difficult in some places than others due to local "customs").

Just to make sure, those items would be

1. Properly and legally equipped

2. Sportsmanship

3. Lineups

4. Ground rules

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28 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

Just to make sure, those items would be

1. Properly and legally equipped

2. Sportsmanship

3. Lineups

4. Ground rules

Would you add a pace of play statement for time limit games?  I've seen a mix of this in tournament play - some umpires mention it, some don't...some want things moving...others don't care - if the teams only want to get in three innings over 1:45 that's their problem...

Probably not applicable for most HS games, though I'm guessing there are a lot of tournaments played under FED rules that have time limits in the round robin.

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3 hours ago, Biscuit said:

Just to make sure, those items would be

1. Properly and legally equipped

2. Sportsmanship

3. Lineups

4. Ground rules

Yep: LEGS

(Lineups, Equipment, Ground rules, Sportsmanship)

I've also heard ILEGS (adding introductions to the beginning), but to me that seems obvious.

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Biscuit: correct.

And it should take 30–90 seconds, or we're doing it wrong.

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In Illinois, there has been a heavy emphasis placed on “60 seconds between innings”.  That’s not actually in the rule book though.  :lookup

 

Equipment: “Coaches, are your players legal and legally equipped?  If not, don’t worry, we aren’t going to do anything about the balls or chest protectors that you have had three years to get up to snuff.”  :P

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15 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

In Illinois, there has been a heavy emphasis placed on “60 seconds between innings”.  That’s not actually in the rule book though.  :lookup

 

Equipment: “Coaches, are your players legal and legally equipped?  If not, don’t worry, we aren’t going to do anything about the balls or chest protectors that you have had three years to get up to snuff.”  :P

6-2-2?

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8 hours ago, Matt said:

6-2-2?

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. 6-2-2 EXCEPTION specifies that the pitcher's eight warmup throws are to be completed within one minute.

Nothing about "60 seconds" in the rule book. ;) 

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6 hours ago, maven said:

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. 6-2-2 EXCEPTION specifies that the pitcher's eight warmup throws are to be completed within one minute.

Nothing about "60 seconds" in the rule book. ;) 

I left that open, hoping somebody would toss that out there.  :D

EDIT; THIS IS WRONG, AS MAVEN IS ABOUT TO POINT OUT: Additionally, that 60 seconds starts with his first warmup pitch, not the third out of the previous half inning.  By the book, he could screw around all he wants and still get 60 seconds, which is contrary to what they teach here.

Don’t forget, the book is always right.  (Except when we don’t want it to be.)

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5 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Additionally, that 60 seconds starts with his first warmup pitch, not the third out of the previous half inning.  By the book, he could screw around all he wants and still get 60 seconds, which is contrary to what they teach here.

Wrong again. 

If a pitcher is replaced during an inning, the incoming pitcher gets 1 minute (from his first warmup pitch).

returning pitcher after a half inning ends—the one who (usually) gets just 5 warmup throws—gets 1 minute timed from the third out.

Quote

6-2-2 EXCEPTION: At the beginning of each subsequent inning, the pitcher may warm up by using not more than five throws, completed in one minute (timed from the third out of the previous half-inning) (3-1-2).

 

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2 hours ago, maven said:

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. 6-2-2 EXCEPTION specifies that the pitcher's eight warmup throws are to be completed within one minute.

Nothing about "60 seconds" in the rule book. ;) 

That's right up there with my paralegal's response when I asked her how tall her son is (her son plays for a local high school).

"He's five-eleven or five-twelve."

(Yes, this is the same paralegal who last week told me her son's teammate needed "Jimmy John's" surgery.)

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35 minutes ago, maven said:

Wrong again. 

If a pitcher is replaced during an inning, the incoming pitcher gets 1 minute (from his first warmup pitch).

returning pitcher after a half inning ends—the one who (usually) gets just 5 warmup throws—gets 1 minute timed from the third out.

 

And if you pull that rule out of your hip pocket you now have to enforce an unrealistic time for the rest of the game.

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1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

And if you pull that rule out of your hip pocket you now have to enforce an unrealistic time for the rest of the game.

I agree.   While the "one minute" rule DOES help move the game along, .... timing it when the 3rd out happens isn't reasonable either.   I typically will start my stopwatch as the team enters the field (roughly)...unless of course, they take too much time.  It's not an exact science, but :)

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22 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

And if you pull that rule out of your hip pocket you now have to enforce an unrealistic time for the rest of the game.

The discussion did not concern enforcement, it concerned the specific text of the rule. Keep up. :P 

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

I agree.   While the "one minute" rule DOES help move the game along, .... timing it when the 3rd out happens isn't reasonable either.   I typically will start my stopwatch as the team enters the field (roughly)...unless of course, they take too much time.  It's not an exact science, but :)

Though I really like your approach, as it provides reasonable leeway, I do think timing 60 seconds from the third out is more than reasonable.  I've coached enough teams to know what they're capable of if they have a gun to their head - how fast they can really be ready for the next inning if they want, and how slow they can be if they want.  Especially with CR's.   Any coach who tells you they can't be more efficient is lying.  There are exceptions, but 95% of the time if the teams aren't ready for the next inning within 60 seconds of the third out, it's because at least one of the teams chose it that way.

 

3 hours ago, maven said:

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. 6-2-2 EXCEPTION specifies that the pitcher's eight warmup throws are to be completed within one minute.

Nothing about "60 seconds" in the rule book. ;) 

 

1 hour ago, lawump said:

That's right up there with my paralegal's response when I asked her how tall her son is (her son plays for a local high school).

"He's five-eleven or five-twelve."

(Yes, this is the same paralegal who last week told me her son's teammate needed "Jimmy John's" surgery.)

I'm gonna date myself, but on Boston's debut album the song "Rock & Roll Band" is listed with a run time of 2:60.

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30 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Though I really like your approach, as it provides reasonable leeway, I do think timing 60 seconds from the third out is more than reasonable.  I've coached enough teams to know what they're capable of if they have a gun to their head - how fast they can really be ready for the next inning if they want, and how slow they can be if they want.  Especially with CR's.   Any coach who tells you they can't be more efficient is lying.  There are exceptions, but 95% of the time if the teams aren't ready for the next inning within 60 seconds of the third out, it's because at least one of the teams chose it that way.

 

 

 

Since we've been enforcing this, I've been paying attention to the teams getting ready to take the field, and even when they're typically a prepared team that doesn't "doddle" .... that extra 10-15 seconds or so seems to be better suited for 18 year olds.  And, again, if prepared, they're also ready at about :45 seconds on my stopwatch :)

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4 hours ago, maven said:

Wrong again. 

If a pitcher is replaced during an inning, the incoming pitcher gets 1 minute (from his first warmup pitch).

returning pitcher after a half inning ends—the one who (usually) gets just 5 warmup throws—gets 1 minute timed from the third out.

 


D’oh!  Reading comprehension is fun.  I was wrong when arguing against my own point.  :banghead:

:shrug:

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4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

And if you pull that rule out of your hip pocket you now have to enforce an unrealistic time for the rest of the game.

1) How is this unrealistic?
 

2) Are you picking and choosing what rules to enforce?

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1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

1) How is this unrealistic?
 

2) Are you picking and choosing what rules to enforce?

1) lets just say the college method is realistic. 
2) I haven’t enforced the 1 minute from last out. There might be some other rules that I applied Jim Evans criteria to but I can’t think of any others right now. “That is not a practical way to umpire. “

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On 2/6/2020 at 9:26 PM, The Man in Blue said:

In Illinois, there has been a heavy emphasis placed on “60 seconds between innings”.  That’s not actually in the rule book though.  :lookup

 

Equipment: “Coaches, are your players legal and legally equipped?  If not, don’t worry, we aren’t going to do anything about the balls or chest protectors that you have had three years to get up to snuff.”  :P

Iowa shared the same emphasis.  In a memo two or three years ago, they asked umpires to address it at the plate meeting.  We choose to continue doing it as a crew.  

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