After a walk, when can time be called? MLB level.

[Amgolfer]

After a walk, when can time be called?  MLB level.

[SeeingEyeDog]

There is nothing in the OBR rule book about this, however there IS likely something in the MLBUA manual. This is a publication that MLB umpires refer to that guides them about how the commissioner and the league leadership want the games managed by the umpires. How should the baseballs be prepared for play prior to the game? Every umpiring nuance not covered in the rulebook is covered in that manual.

The way I have been trained by the professionals and college guys in my local association for the levels of ball I work is that we do not call time following a walk until AFTER the batter/runner has touched 1B and we have determined that there will be no additional action on the field of play. Coaches and fielders do not understand why we do this as coaches in particular will shoot us some shade when they are coming out to talk to their pitchers (likely they are already chapped anyway...) because we don't grant time right away. This is to the defense's advantage! If we kill it before the batter/runner reaches 1B and he tries to go to 2B or even 3B or home and is put out? Guess what? He's not out! The umpires killed it!

Typically, the baseball has been returned to F1 following a walk. The baseball is now in the center of the diamond. Assuming the defense is paying attention, ANY additional action by the baserunners trying to advance will typically result in a putout assuming the play is left live. So, as umpires, we try to leave the ball in play as long as we possibly can and not kill it until we are certain the play has settled. And keep in mind, there are instances (not a walk, of course...) where by rule the ball is immediately dead. HBP for example...the play is dead immediately.

~Dawg

[Vegas_Ump]

Just to add what Dawg said, there are a lot of times (especially in youth ball) where the defense asks for time to get the ball into the pitcher.  The umpire is NOT the 10th defensive player nor is he the 3rd offensive coach.  You should always weigh the situation if you might disadvantage either team.

Mike

Las Vegas

[grayhawk]

Dawg is right, but do I often grant time before the BR reach first base? Yes, almost all the time. There are some things to be sticklers on, but this isn't one of them for me. This assumes F2 has caught it cleanly and everything is relaxed. 

[Jay R.]

Not immediately, as Kelsey Jansen learned the hard way:

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/kenley-jansen-tosses-live-ball-into-dugout-against-braves-c182237644

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, Amgolfer said:

After a walk, when can time be called?  MLB level.

At the MLB level? Immediately, or before the BR reaches 1B, for the most part. Everyone knows whats going on, and nobody is trying, or even able to at that level advance to 2B. This isn't 10u.

 

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Dawg is right, but do I often grant time before the BR reach first base? Yes, almost all the time. There are some things to be sticklers on, but this isn't one of them for me. This assumes F2 has caught it cleanly and everything is relaxed. 

Agree with Grayhawk. HS and above, all the time. Many times a coach is already walking out, and again, everyone knows what is going on.

Below HS levels, depends on the situation, I often will wait until the BR reaches 1st base, and all play is relaxed. You have to know the situation, and the level you are working at.

At more experienced levels, you can grant time before they reach 1B. Strictly speaking, yes you are supposed to wait, but you don't always have to.

[Velho]

Is this why we got the question?

 

 

[MadMax]

On 8/25/2024 at 11:22 PM, Velho said:

Is this why we got the question?

This situation (Cubs vs. Marlins) is a strange one, and we really need to hear/read what MLB decrees on this, because if it truly is for Sanchez, as B/BR not touching 1B on an IBB, but his substitute (Pache) does, then that goes against the provisions of the Rules regarding substitutions, especially on injuries to a Runner (or the BR) incurred on a play (such as a HR, GR2B, OBS award, OOP award, or HBP). 

It may have been an illegal substitution, and I can see the case that Counsell and the Cubs made for it. If Sanchez was going to be immediately replaced by Pache upon being issued a IBB, then the Cubs would never have intentionally walked Sanchez – they would have pitched to Pache. We need to remember, this is all happening during Dead ball – an IBB is a dead-ball event, as is a substitution. 

It cannot simply be that Sanchez didn’t touch 1B on the (I)BB, because there are numerous instances of Batters being HBP, and being so injured, they are directly removed from the field, and their substitute assumes their position at 1B. Also, and admittedly more rare, a Batter has hit either a HR OOP or a GR2B OOP, and injured himself (Achilles tendon tear, for example) during the swing or exiting the box, and the batting team has been allowed to substitute for him, and the substitute completes the obligatory base touches. 

So, this will be interesting. 

On 8/25/2024 at 7:54 PM, Amgolfer said:

After a walk, when can time be called?  MLB level.

 

On 8/25/2024 at 8:17 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

The way I have been trained by the professionals and college guys in my local association for the levels of ball I work is that we do not call time following a walk until AFTER the batter/runner has touched 1B…

I’m going to tell you, hand-on-heart, that those guys aren’t following what they’re preaching to you. Granted, they may be training you tailored to the levels that you (and most of us) work, which is amateur, for the majority. 

Anything televised, or with paychecks involved? They’re calling time immediately. On Ball 4, you’ll see college batters start eschewing the 15 pieces of armor they’re wearing at the plate, while the catcher is already out of his crouch and headed towards the mound, and a (pitching/head) coach is stalking out from the dugout and about to cross the foul line, steamed at __________ (his F1, his entire team, his school, life, the PU, his choice of lunch today). The PU has already called Time. 
Or, on any professional game (lowercase p or uppercase P), as soon as that pitched ball is scuffed, it’s getting changed out. Pass ball or wild pitch, different story. But if that Ball 4 is in the catcher’s possession, and it skipped in the dirt or mud or clay, and needs to be changed out, then you better believe the pros are not waiting the BR to trot 90’ to 1B first before making that change. Watch any MLB game… it happens constantly. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

8 hours ago, MadMax said:

I’m going to tell you, hand-on-heart, that those guys aren’t following what they’re preaching to you. Granted, they may be training you tailored to the levels that you (and most of us) work, which is amateur, for the majority. 

 

Yes, you are absolutely correct. I apologize as this is an important distinction. Yes, I was trained to the level of ball I work and not above HS.

Another example of this is...pro guys put the ball in play ONCE at the start of the game. Amateurs need to know when the ball is in or out of play so, with runners on...we ALWAYS mechanically and vocally put the ball back into play. Thank you, @MadMax...

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

8 hours ago, MadMax said:

This situation (Cubs vs. Marlins) is a strange one, and we really need to hear/read what MLB decrees on this, because if it truly is for Sanchez, as B/BR not touching 1B on an IBB, but his substitute (Pache) does, then that goes against the provisions of the Rules regarding substitutions, especially on injuries to a Runner (or the BR) incurred on a play (such as a HR, GR2B, OBS award, OOP award, or HBP). 

It may have been an illegal substitution, and I can see the case that Counsell and the Cubs made for it. If Sanchez was going to be immediately replaced by Pache upon being issued a IBB, then the Cubs would never have intentionally walked Sanchez – they would have pitched to Pache. We need to remember, this is all happening during Dead ball – an IBB is a dead-ball event, as is a substitution. 

It cannot simply be that Sanchez didn’t touch 1B on the (I)BB, because there are numerous instances of Batters being HBP, and being so injured, they are directly removed from the field, and their substitute assumes their position at 1B. Also, and admittedly more rare, a Batter has hit either a HR OOP or a GR2B OOP, and injured himself (Achilles tendon tear, for example) during the swing or exiting the box, and the batting team has been allowed to substitute for him, and the substitute completes the obligatory base touches. 

So, this will be interesting. 

 

 

 

 

I think Marlins - Cubs was a kick. Did the other team challenge to NY for a rule question?

"5.10(a)  A player, or players, may be substituted during a game at any time the ball is dead.

Regarding calling time in OBR:

"5.12(8)  Except in the cases stated in paragraphs (2) and (3)(A) of this rule, no umpire shall call “Time” while a play is in progress."

[834k3r]

18 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Amateurs need to know when the ball is in or out of play so, with runners on...we ALWAYS mechanically and vocally put the ball back into play.

And the consequences if a crew gets this wrong can be significant (again, for our level of play).

Case in point, Mr. Cup Check Guy (one of my association peers, so named in a separate thread) was PU for a game I was watching (not crewing). Game's in the top of the 3rd. Following a mound conference, PU didn't put the ball back in play. Home team F1 throws to F3 to pick off R1, but R1 gets in a pickle and gets tagged out. Crowd rejoices. VTHC comes out, asks for time, and tells PU the ball wasn't put back in play. PU agrees and puts R1 back on 1B. HTHC is livid, and the crowd didn't let up on the PU for the rest of the game.

Putting the ball back in play is critical.

[concertman1971]

Agree with @grayhawk. If there is no action, or (for example) there is R2 and B1 walks, If R2 is standing on 2b shooting the $hit with F6, Im granting time before BR is on 1b.

Also @834k3r I am putting the ball in play every time in HS/College. Just a habit that helps avoid issues.

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, MadMax said:

This situation (Cubs vs. Marlins) is a strange one, and we really need to hear/read what MLB decrees on this, because if it truly is for Sanchez, as B/BR not touching 1B on an IBB, but his substitute (Pache) does, then that goes against the provisions of the Rules regarding substitutions, especially on injuries to a Runner (or the BR) incurred on a play (such as a HR, GR2B, OBS award, OOP award, or HBP). 

Is it "especially" on injuries, or "only" on injuries?

Oftentimes the injured player is unable to complete the obligations, and I suspect rather than dealing with which injuries qualify and which don't, they've simply determined the injured player is exempt, and the onus falls to the sub to complete the obligations.  Sanchez was not injured, and had every opportunity to touch first before he left the field.  It may be pedantic, but it doesn't go "against" the injury provision...it simply doesn't qualify for the injury provision.

 

To the first question in the OP - I think FED requires the ump to wait for the batter to "reach" first base before granting time...I'm not sure if OBR has any such requirement.

But that's all moot here - the ball's already dead because it's an IBB.

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Sanchez was not injured, and had every opportunity to touch first before he left the field. 

 

To the first question in the OP - I think FED requires the ump to wait for the batter to "reach" first base before granting time...I'm not sure if OBR has any such requirement.

But that's all moot here - the ball's already dead because it's an IBB.

I don't see any OBR rule that requires the batter to touch 1B before he is subbed for. We don't need an injury provision. We had a legal sub during a dead ball who touched and was on 1B when HE was called out. MLB will be along shortly with an explanation and the interp.

OBR has an old interp from Fitzpatrick that he agrees with FED and NCAA not to call time until that batter reaches 1B. That was before the dead ball IBB. Even now in FED if they want to walk a good hitting catcher I'll let the CR go to 1B and tell the catcher he can go to the dugout.

[beerguy55]

11 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I don't see any OBR rule that requires the batter to touch 1B before he is subbed for. We don't need an injury provision. We had a legal sub during a dead ball who touched and was on 1B when HE was called out. MLB will be along shortly with an explanation and the interp.

What about 5.05.(b)(1)?

 

Rule 5.05(b)(1) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls, including an award of first base to a batter by an umpire following a signal from a manager, must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game...

 

I'm definitely interested to hear MLB's explanation...and frankly would like to hear that this was kicked...but the above comment does seem to indicate what the batter is obligated to do before he is subbed out...and that, implicitly, injury is the exception to said requirement.

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

What about 5.05.(b)(1)?

 

Rule 5.05(b)(1) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls, including an award of first base to a batter by an umpire following a signal from a manager, must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game...

 

I'm definitely interested to hear MLB's explanation...and frankly would like to hear that this was kicked...but the above comment does seem to indicate what the batter is obligated to do before he is subbed out...and that, implicitly, injury is the exception to said requirement.

I don't see how that applies when no one was forced to advance. If it applies WHEN a sub runner is put into the game then it would it be before the batter went to 1B and they require the sub to touch 1B before others are forced? Is this about scoring a run due to force more than who touches 1B?

[grayhawk]

That's the rule Lindsay quoted in this video (after the EJ):

 

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I don't see how that applies when no one was forced to advance. If it applies WHEN a sub runner is put into the game then it would it be before the batter went to 1B and they require the sub to touch 1B before others are forced? Is this about scoring a run due to force more than who touches 1B?

No - this is purely about when a batter becomes a runner, and the obligation a batter has after getting a BB/IBB.

I'm just saying, if MLB is going to defend the ruling in this game, this is the rule/comment they'll need to stand on.

 

For me - on an IBB that is going to be followed by a sub, just let the sub go to first and the other player go straight to the dugout.   

Not sure how FED courtesy runners go, but I'd also say that as long as the play is over and/or action is relaxed, just let the courtesy runner go to first and the catcher go to the dugout - after all, the courtesy runner is supposed to be a speed-up rule.

[corespoon]

Interesting to see some grant it before the BR gets to 1st. I've done it myself until I had a coach jump me for doing it, even though he was already on the field in the BR way and nothing was happening play wise other than everyone slowly trotting to their base. I think he was just trying to pick a fight because I wasn't giving them strikes that were in the left handed batters box. 

[Velho]

5 minutes ago, corespoon said:

I think he was just trying to pick a fight because I wasn't giving them strikes that were in the left handed batters box. 

Well, you weren't giving him the ones in the right handed batters box. C'mon man, you can't have it both ways! 😂

[SeeingEyeDog]

51 minutes ago, Velho said:

Well, you weren't giving him the ones in the right handed batters box. C'mon man, you can't have it both ways! 😂

This spring at a HS school game I had someone yell to me in the top of the 1st..."C'mon, Blue! You gotta' call it both ways!!!"

I didn't say anything but, internally I'm thinking, "I...will? That is...my intention?"

~Dawg

[BigBlue4u]

21 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

There is nothing in the OBR rule book about this

5.05 (b) (1) Comment:  A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls including an award of first base to a batter by an umpire following a signal from a manager, must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance.  This applies when the bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Rule 5.05(b)(1) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls, including an award of first base to a batter by an umpire following a signal from a manager, must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game...

Wow. Color my interest piqued, and in the Jeopardy category of Obscure Baseball Rules, this one is in the Dub-Jep round, at $1800. 

If we go simply by what transpired in the video, and with that Rule citation, then it wasn’t kicked; instead, in the words of NCAA umpiring, it was enforced as written. 

Now this sets up a “spirit of the rule” argument. The rule’s purpose must be something entailing substitutions… which are a very big deal in MLB, more so than any other level, hands down. 

[Velho]

4 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

5.05 (b) (1) Comment:  A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls including an award of first base to a batter by an umpire following a signal from a manager, must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance.

For the life of me I can't figure out why language I've bolded above is there. What is that trying to say? 

[Biscuit]

Under FED, you are required to wait (though I'm not always great at this...) NCAA and OBR, you are not (and should not if play is relaxed). I've never heard a good reason as to WHY if a batter is taking his time, the pitcher has the ball, and the coach is coming out I should wait. The BR going to second or some such nonsense is bad baseball, and I'm not going to hold the coach at the line because there's some remote chance that will happen. Note that if the BR is sprinting to first, I can see his intentions and won't call time immediately... But again, there's no real baseball that can happen here. Sometimes you have to kill the play to get the next play going.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Can I also add to the mix...OBR has no dead ball appeal. Did plate put it back into play before they ran their appeal? As discussed and witnessed we know they frequently do not...just curious...

~Dawg