“Knee Pop Balk”

[Jglopez7]

I have included a link to the videos for a LHP. Curios to hear feedback. Also would these rules be cited if called a balk. I understand the rule for a RHP. 

Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vK1xJr9iiijsxXvJ24n8drh2GYvZizAk/view?usp=drivesdk

Link 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J_2H6v1tMvOqEeXQ2xjTheY3ByGsR6hO/view?usp=drivesdk

Link 3: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AzLgYqBWLmiUo0KHxtsas-u3bAyL0xrB/view?usp=drivesdk

[noumpere]

2 minutes ago, Jglopez7 said:

 I understand the rule for a RHP. 

 

 

Then you understand the rules for a LH pitcher -- they are the same.

[Jglopez7]

27 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Then you understand the rules for a LH pitcher -- they are the same.

I agree. Just want to share the video and get different perspectives 

[834k3r]

Subtle, but I'd balk it. I'm sure the OC was coming unglued.

[beerguy55]

I fully admit that this is, by a few light years, the weakest part of my rules knowledge.   So that said, I fail to see the balk here.  How has that little back knee bend committed him to pitch vs simply stepping towards and throwing to first?

Not really sure how you can do that without pushing off the back leg to some degree...this is so small his heel doesn't even lift.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I saw Andy Pettitte do this about 800 times.

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I saw Andy Pettitte do this about 800 times.

You very well may be right.  But remember this, each level, MLB, NCAA and NFHS has its own rules interpreter.  As a result, the ruling will depend on what level is being played. Thus, not all levels may agree on a certain move by the pitcher.

[johnnyg08]

All of these are balks. They're hard to get unless you're ready for them right away. 

You have to really focus on the lower half of the body. 

Nice clips. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

All of these are balks. They're hard to get unless you're ready for them right away. 

You have to really focus on the lower half of the body. 

Nice clips. 

I'm not ready for them and I'm not gonna focus on them. Nobody has demonstrated that you can throw in one direction without flexing the leg. If a coach wants to key his runner on a knee too bad. Somewhere in MLBUM there was and might be some wording about back leg knee pops. I never understood it and calling knee pops is above my pay grade.

[maven]

I'm with Jimurray. No balk in HS varsity and below. Especially in youth ball, where F1's twitch and wiggle all over the mound, this is way to picky.

Football officials would call this kind of violation "too technical." If the explanation of the call has to start with, "technically..." then we shouldn't be calling it.

Balks should almost always call themselves. This one doesn't.

[The Man in Blue]

At lower levels, I am with the consensus that this would probably not be seen, let alone called.

To @beerguy55’s question of what is to be gained (or why it should be a balk), I would say it is mimicking a weight shift indicative of a pitch.  However, as @Jimurray said, you shift on almost any throw, so … 

[blue23ll]

Are the links of the same move, just different views? Link #3 is clearly a balk. 

[urout17]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

At lower levels, I am with the consensus that this would probably not be seen, let alone called.

To @beerguy55’s question of what is to be gained (or why it should be a balk), I would say it is mimicking a weight shift indicative of a pitch.  However, as @Jimurray said, you shift on almost any throw, so … 

Back in my playing days, when leading off vs RH pitchers, we were trained to watch the pitchers pivot leg from the knee down since he couldn't come over without picking it up off the plate.  That little knee buckle would tip us off to take off.  I do watch for that in higher level games.  Just my two cents.

[Jglopez7]

19 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

Are the links of the same move, just different views? Link #3 is clearly a balk. 

Two different pick off attempts. Third video is slowed down for better viewing. Great feedback from everyone. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, urout17 said:

Back in my playing days, when leading off vs RH pitchers, we were trained to watch the pitchers pivot leg from the knee down since he couldn't come over without picking it up off the plate.

That's clearly wrong, by rule.  (I agree that in practice most (nearly all) throws from a RH pitcher involve a jab step or a step back.)

[urout17]

38 minutes ago, noumpere said:

That's clearly wrong, by rule.  (I agree that in practice most (nearly all) throws from a RH pitcher involve a jab step or a step back.)

Oh, absolutely but you know how coaches love to teach "If you ain't cheat'n, you ain't try'n."

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, urout17 said:

Oh, absolutely but you know how coaches love to teach "If you ain't cheat'n, you ain't try'n."

It's elemental to the game...what can you get away with in plain sight of the umpires.   Here's the opening statement in Ken Burns' Baseball documentary.  This sums up the history of baseball and the word "cheating" comes in the first sentence, mere seconds after the series begins.

 

At its heart lie mythic contradictions: a pastoral game born in crowded cities, an exhilarating democratic sport that tolerates cheating, and has excluded as many as it has included. A profoundly conservative game that often manages to be years ahead of its time. It is an American Odyssey that links sons and daughters to fathers and grandfathers, and it reflects a host of age-old American tensions; between workers and owners, scandal and reform, the individual and the collective. It is a haunted game in which every player is measured with the ghosts of those who have gone before. Most of all it is about time and timelessness, speed and grace, failure and loss, imperishable hope, and coming home.”

[Umpire Guy 702]

That 1st one is pretty bad. 2 completely separate movements almost mimicking a start/stop

[Biscuit]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:04 PM, johnnyg08 said:

All of these are balks. They're hard to get unless you're ready for them right away. 

You have to really focus on the lower half of the body. 

Nice clips. 

I agree... But I'm having a really hard tome coming up with rule book verbiage. How are you explaining the balk to the coach?

[Kevin_K]

22 hours ago, Biscuit said:

I agree... But I'm having a really hard tome coming up with rule book verbiage. How are you explaining the balk to the coach?

On 4/5/2024 at 7:14 PM, Umpire Guy 702 said:

That 1st one is pretty bad. 2 completely separate movements almost mimicking a start/stop

You already explained it.

[johnnyg08]

On 4/6/2024 at 9:21 AM, Biscuit said:

I agree... But I'm having a really hard tome coming up with rule book verbiage. How are you explaining the balk to the coach?

Understood. It's a start & stop.