Hit batter, no attempt to move

[Guest Bunit14]

After 20 years, I’ve returned to umpiring American Legion.  Here is a question I’ve been looking for an answer to: If a batter is hit by a pitch but does not make an attempt to get out of the way, which umpire in a two man crew is responsible to make the call?

I was on the bases.  Batter obviously did not make an attempt to move and was hit by the pitch.  First base was awarded and there was a lot of chirping from the crowd but the coach didn’t make an appeal.  

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, Guest Bunit14 said:

After 20 years, I’ve returned to umpiring American Legion.  Here is a question I’ve been looking for an answer to: If a batter is hit by a pitch but does not make an attempt to get out of the way, which umpire in a two man crew is responsible to make the call?

I was on the bases.  Batter obviously did not make an attempt to move and was hit by the pitch.  First base was awarded and there was a lot of chirping from the crowd but the coach didn’t make an appeal.  

First. the coach can't appeal that.

Second, it's PU's call.  Stay out of it unless PU asks for an opinion (and he shouldn't unless he was completely blocked out)

[beerguy55]

23 minutes ago, Guest Bunit14 said:

Batter obviously did not make an attempt to move and was hit by the pitch.

So what?   I hate this terminology and I wish people would stop using it.  There is 150 years of baseball wrought with thousands (maybe even millions) of cases of batters who got first base after making no attempt to move.  Why?   Because they couldn't. They didn't have time.   They didn't see it right.  The pitch was too fast.  Or moved unexpectedly.  Or they blinked.  Or deer in the headlights.

The rule writers NEVER intended a batter being denied first base for not attempting to move when getting drilled by a 102 mph ball that gave them about 0.1 seconds to react.

The issue isn't whether or not they made an attempt...the issue is whether or not they ALLOWED, with intent, the ball to hit them.   If you're gonna keep the batter in the box you better be damned sure they WANTED to get hit.

The pitch was thrown into the batter's box...try not reward the pitcher.

[SeeingEyeDog]

ANY umpire on the field is fully empowered to make ANY call. But, clearly there are certain calls that we understand are taken 99% of the time by specific umpires according to well-researched mechanics going back decades now. HBP should be PU's call. Field umpires should wait a beat or two and if PU doesn't grab it, a field umpire can grab it and then PU should mirror the call. The first priority on HBP is calling time, killing the play because that is a dead ball regardless of whether in the umpire's judgement the batter attempted to avoid the pitch. On HBP where it is not obvious where the batter was hit, PU should come up after calling time and point or motion on his body where the ball struck the batter. This is good preventative umpiring.

Whether or not the batter attempted to get out of the way has a lot to do with the pitcher and the batter. I have had games from LL up to men's leagues where in introducing myself to the catcher and asking about the pitcher, what he likes to throw, his out pitch, etc...the catcher will shake his head and say, "He throws gas and I don't know where it's going, Blue..." this could then be followed up with the #9 hitter who was lucky to make roster and is up there petrified. I'm going to assess that HBP much differently, then the all-city leader in HRs who is off on a full ride to play D1 next year and is standing in there facing eephuses (eephii?) or other low speed garbage and allowing himself to get HBP. If the crew is not awarding first base on HBP, the pitch must also be adjudicated ball or strike and finally, HBP on a called strike is never awarded first base regardless of whether they attempted to get out of the way or not. 

@noumpere, has this correct. Unless there is some extraordinary circumstance (visually blocked, knocked over, dirt in the eye etc.), PU should not be going to a partner on whether the batter attempted to avoid being HBP.

~Dawg  

[agdz59]

12 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

So what?   I hate this terminology and I wish people would stop using it.  There is 150 years of baseball wrought with thousands (maybe even millions) of cases of batters who got first base after making no attempt to move.  Why?   Because they couldn't. They didn't have time.   They didn't see it right.  The pitch was too fast.  Or moved unexpectedly.  Or they blinked.  Or deer in the headlights.

The rule writers NEVER intended a batter being denied first base for not attempting to move when getting drilled by a 102 mph ball that gave them about 0.1 seconds to react.

The issue isn't whether or not they made an attempt...the issue is whether or not they ALLOWED, with intent, the ball to hit them.   If you're gonna keep the batter in the box you better be damned sure they WANTED to get hit.

The pitch was thrown into the batter's box...try not reward the pitcher.

I'm glad you answered this @beerguy55 because the coach's perspective is important.  I've seen lots and lots of these this year in the youth / high school level games I do.  It is obvious to me it's a pride / dare-type thing with these teenagers and pre-teens.  Their teammates are yelling "wear it, wear it!" and they get applause from their dugout when they take one without moving.  

I've only called it a ball once and that was because it was a catcher who was fighting me on that day's mask protocol.  But I've seen one kid take it off his helmet.  How long before a kid takes it off his face just to show how tough he is?

I'm concerned that a kid is going to get hurt before long, so do I start calling these balls more often at this level in an attempt to get the kids to at least take it off a well protected part of their body? What do you think coach?

[aaluck]

18 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The pitch was thrown into the batter's box...try not reward the pitcher.

I agree with this.  What I find to be funny is how their opinion on 'trying not to get hit' changes from offense to defense. I've never heard the coach on offense scream 'he didn't try to get out of the way' yet the same guy constantly does on defense.

Unless I see the kid trying to get hit he's going to first.  I believe it is called the batter's box for a reason.

[beerguy55]

6 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

I'm concerned that a kid is going to get hurt before long, so do I start calling these balls more often at this level in an attempt to get the kids to at least take it off a well protected part of their body? What do you think coach?

I stand by my original statement.

I will also add though...that turning to take a pitch that is probably going to hit me anyway on a meatier part of my body is not "allowing" it to hit me.

If you're absolutely sure they're allowing themselves to be hit, on pitches that are otherwise avoidable, pull the trigger.

I wouldn't worry too much about the injuries.  Batters usually figure this out after getting a broken finger or rib...though, some intense bruising on the tricep, or taking one right on the ulna is often enough...and learn that being tough is not nearly as effective as being able to play or pick up a bat.

I would posit that you may be misinterpreting the "wear it" cheers (though I'm sure there are some very irresponsible coaches out there)...yes, I played on many teams in my youth where "wear it" was the mantra, but not for the purpose you think...it's a tough balance, but as a coach, and a teammate, you sometimes need to encourage your players to stay in the box and not FEAR getting hit...otherwise, they start moving back on pitches on the inside half of the plate.   The invitation to "wear it" is more about "stay in there...don't worry about it hitting you"...players who stay in there then see more pitches and are ALWAYS ready to hit...you can't be ready to hit if you're first thought is to dive out of the way.   

I once hit a home run on a pitch that started by going at my head/shoulder, and then broke over the plate.   I only learned to do that by learning to "stay in there".   And, yeah, sure, wearing it once in a while helps the team.   But it made me miserable.  I played a game with a broken collar bone once, so my team wouldn't forfeit.   "Toughness", or whatever you want to call it, wasn't an issue.  But though I made sure I wasn't pushed off the plate, I made every effort humanly possible to not get hit.  I HATED getting hit by the pitch - which, by coincidence, is actually what broke my collar bone - on a pitch where I "made no attempt to get out of the way" - in my replay in my mind, the ball left the pitcher's hand, and then I was on my ass...not really sure when I was supposed to move. (and yes, I was granted first base, though I was subbed before I got there)

[BLWizzRanger]

Ok, full confession, I picked up the wrong end of the stick this year only once for this situation.

A batters first at-bat had him turning and leaning his elbow into the pitch.  Had him stay in the box.

Next at bat, the same batter, with the same pitcher, got drilled in the back but the thing of it was that he had the same motion as in the first at bat but turned maybe four or five more inches. Nonchalant.  No movement of the feet or hesitation or surprise. He just leaned further into the pitch. I judged that he could have gotten out of the way.  Kids that were obviously younger and less experienced, on the same type of pitch from this pitcher, did get out of the way.

Crapped rained down from the heavens.  'where was he supposed to go?' was the first question asked that I could understand.  I explained what I saw. 

Will I call it again? HELL NO - take your base.

Do I agree with it?  HELL NO - there was no attempt to move.

But the profession has accepted this ruling.  I will just shake my head as I point toward first.

 

 

[Thunderheads]

This reminds me of a nightmare game from this high-school season.  Mainly because one of the teams hitters would stand totally still on an inside pitch (and I'm not talking "it's gonna hit me" inside either) ...his stance had his hands sort of over the plate (not quite but close) .... and he stood there like a STONE.  In this instance, he's permitting the ball to hit him.  He's not moving to try and get hit ... but he's set up so he could easily get hit and will let it happen.    Not gonna play that game either ...

[ArchAngel72]

I have seen a "wear that well" mentality in local Baberuth and unless they flinched I would hold them there for not attempting to avoid

 

LL 8-10U  I am sending them every single time they get hit unless they swung at it.

10-12U  to me this depends on the pitcher and the batter a 10U standing in there against a 12U throwing heat and making the 10U nearly pee himself yeah if he got hit I'm sending him just cause if he did not move he froze in fear.

But if I see someone throwing "softer" and an older kid stands there like a statue "Nope you stay here"

 

 

[Velho]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The invitation to "wear it" is more about "stay in there...don't worry about it hitting you"

I hear you about what the dugout is saying.

The stands, including the 9's All Star game plate I did the other night, mean "get plunked take the base". This from people who think it's nothing*. Those fools don't get to see the look in those kids eyes at the near death experience. Dismiss it all they want but that kid just experienced a REAL threat in their mind. I see the fear (I'm talking 8-12 yr olds).

* We know they don't feel good. I still have a large pebble sized bump on my shin bone from a 10U warm up pitch 6 weeks ago (my fault as BU for going back there between innings). 

** AND these are the same people who are too scared to come back and ump. Sheesh.

 

[Velho]

2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

But if I see someone throwing "softer" and an older kid stands there like a statue "Nope you stay here"

Each one is HBTT of course but, if the pitch is entirely in the batters box? "take your base".

Also, lol, remember context. At my son's JV game 2 years ago, PU jumped on him for leaning into it one. My son stated he didn't (of course) and they went back and forth - all at normal volume. PU then realized it was ball 4 and sent him to 1st. My son said (at normal volume) "christ" in exasperation at the needless argument and PU tossed him. My son needs to own it (he did learn from it to say nothing at all going forward and no longer leans into pitches) but, at the same time, the PU needlessly created the situation - in my biased opinion  

[Catch18]

Beerguy beat me to it. The pitcher messed up, he threw it into the batter’s box. Why is the batter under an obligation to bail out the pitcher for screwing up? Interesting logic by those who claim the batter has to help the pitcher out.

Use this and it’ll guide your decision every time: Did the ball hit the batter, or did the batter hit the ball? Second guessing myself nearly never happens after learning this principle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aaluck]

3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I have seen a "wear that well" mentality in local Baberuth and unless they flinched I would hold them there for not attempting to avoid

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. HC screaming at a kid for not 'taking one for the team' because he avoided being hit and THEN screaming about me putting a kid on base when he is on defense. Coach you were mad at your kid for moving because you expected me to put him on and now you are mad (on defense) because I did? 

I had a particularly bad team this year that was toes across the inside white getting plunked left and right. Half of the pitches they got plunked on were inside the chalk lines... half.  It turned into a nightmare keeping kids in the box.

[MT73]

Unless they lean into the pitch or make it obvious—or are in the strike zone—I give the batter the benefit 

[flyingron]

It's been 50 years since I played little league, but I recall being beaned more times that I can count.   8yo pitchers don't have a lot of control.    It took a lot just to get me to not back off on any inside pitch.   I remember one side-arming pitcher that used to really give me the willies.

[SeeingEyeDog]

27 minutes ago, flyingron said:

I remember one side-arming pitcher that used to really give me the willies.

Some say he tore his rotator cuff when he was 9. The arm...ripped clean out of the socket...still gripping...the baseball. The whole sha-bang helicoptered its way to the plate. Blue rang it up for strike three. "After all..." he said, "any part of the ball over any part of the plate." They put him in cryo to save his life until they could engineer an experimental arm. He was a boy...barely alive. Gentlemen, they said they could rebuild him. They had the technology. They had the capability to build the world's first bionic boy. And this boy would be that boy. Better than he was before...better, stronger, faster.

Some say he still roams the LL fields of suburbia looking for his next start on the small field. He's still only 10 due to cryo, check his carbon dating. Some say, on a clear night, they can still hear the rhythmic pop...pop...pop of the catcher's mitt as he fills the zone in his imaginary, simulated games. Nobody knows who is brave enough to catch his heat. But he's out there...waiting...firing those sidearm missiles...looking for a start. Some say he once struck out 3 batters...on 2 pitches.

If you grew up playing LL and there wasn't a guy like this...a guy who shaved at 11, had 3 girlfriends who were all in high school, and drove a black Trans-Am. The league would call the next town over and they would send a guy like this to terrorize everyone at the plate.

~Dawg 

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, aaluck said:

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. HC screaming at a kid for not 'taking one for the team' because he avoided being hit and THEN screaming about me putting a kid on base when he is on defense.

That's true for most coaches in all sports.

 

You'll be better off for understanding that type of ocmment

[aaluck]

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's true for most coaches in all sports.

True. Doesn't make it any less frustrating.

[Kyle Flanagan]

Can someone please post the actual HFHS rule on this?  Thanks!  

[noumpere]

3 minutes ago, Kyle Flanagan said:

Can someone please post the actual HFHS rule on this?  Thanks!  

d. a pitched ball hits his person or clothing, provided he does not strike at the ball;

1. If he permits the pitched ball to touch him (7-3-4), or if the umpire calls the pitched ball a strike, the hitting of the batter is disregarded except that the ball is dead. It is a strike or ball depending on location of the pitch.

2. If a batter's loose garment, such as a shirt that is not worn properly, is touched by a pitched ball, the batter is not entitled to first base.

 

Note that in FED, "permits" means something along the lines of "had a chance to move to avoid and chose not to take it."

[HokieUmp]

On 6/23/2021 at 9:52 AM, beerguy55 said:

The rule writers NEVER intended a batter being denied first base for not attempting to move when getting drilled by a 102 mph ball that gave them about 0.1 seconds to react.

102?!?  I want to work YOUR games, G.

(I mean, I agree with everything you said.  But getting 102 in most of MY games means about 1.25 pitchers throwing the ball.)

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, HokieUmp said:

102?!?  I want to work YOUR games, G.

(I mean, I agree with everything you said.  But getting 102 in most of MY games means about 1.25 pitchers throwing the ball.)

It's not pretty...fastest I ever faced in baseball at 60.5 feet was 92...I could hit it, but I wouldn't want to see much faster...it's as much guess work as talent.

In fastpitch, at 46 feet, I faced guys throwing 72-75, which roughly charts to 100 at 60.5 feet...and at that point, it's ALL guessing for us amateur hitters, including some of my teammates who had been drafted by MLB teams.   Especially when some of these guys also have a sinker, and a 55mph changeup, in their repertoire.

NCAA ladies and Olympic softball pitchers routinely measure 68 mph...at 43 feet....that too is a nightmare.  My teams faced, and got embarrassed by, one pitcher who will be on the Canadian Olympic team next month...and another who is first alternate.   The only positive is in facing those two, along with a few other similar caliber pitchers, my batters gained enough experience and perspective that they could absolutely crush virtually any other pitcher they saw in North America.

 

When I was 11 in LL we faced a pitcher who was clocked at 70...from 46 feet I think.