NFHS 2020 Rules/ PoE / Baseballs

[kylehutson]

Just now, Biscuit said:

Was this said at a rules meeting? I haven't made it to one yet (there's one more in my area), but that's consistent with what my assignor said.

I watched the online rules meeting this evening. That's what they said there.

[grayhawk]

Today was opening day and I received a call this morning already about a team not having stamped baseballs.  Luckily, they found a case of approved balls before starting the game.  We are to NOT start a game without the correct baseballs, but allow them a "reasonable amount of time" to produce them.  That was the only call I received today - so far so good.

[HokieUmp]

On 2/14/2020 at 7:37 PM, blue23ll said:

Keep checking your balls all game long

Seriously, are we not doing "phrasing" any more??

[The Man in Blue]

That one slipped by me because 

 

[wolfe_man]

Here is a memo from the NFHS dated 2-12-20, B. Elliot Hopkins, NFHS Baseball Rules Editor and National Rules Interpreter: “We have been receiving some calls about the compliancy of baseballs with the NOCSAE/SEI performance standard mark that do not match the image that is depicted in the NFHS Baseball Rules book or other NFHS publications. If the baseball has the words NOCSAE/SEI printed on the ball, then the balls are compliant with our playing rules. They may not all be printed inside or outside a shape on the ball.”  By rule the balls need to have the NFHS and the NOCSAE/SEI printed on the balls to be legal in Ohio.

 

In order for a game to begin, the umpire UIC must have legal baseballs. 

 

If no baseballs that are legal are presented, we do not play. 
 

If the game starts with legal baseballs and those are lost and no other legal baseballs are available, the game is over.

[Thunderheads]

7 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Here is a memo from the NFHS dated 2-12-20, B. Elliot Hopkins, NFHS Baseball Rules Editor and National Rules Interpreter: “We have been receiving some calls about the compliancy of baseballs with the NOCSAE/SEI performance standard mark that do not match the image that is depicted in the NFHS Baseball Rules book or other NFHS publications. If the baseball has the words NOCSAE/SEI printed on the ball, then the balls are compliant with our playing rules. They may not all be printed inside or outside a shape on the ball.”  By rule the balls need to have the NFHS and the NOCSAE/SEI printed on the balls to be legal in Ohio.

 

In order for a game to begin, the umpire UIC must have legal baseballs. 

 

If no baseballs that are legal are presented, we do not play. 
 

If the game starts with legal baseballs and those are lost and no other legal baseballs are available, the game is over.

This is basically what Michigan confirmed over the weekend at camp.  Basically, we'll be checking baseballs constantly all game.

[The Man in Blue]

 

For the keeper of the list, Illinois' rules video is out and we are ... play and report.  

From IHSA:

SITUATION 12: At the plate conference, the home team head coach provides to the plate umpire three baseballs. The plate umpire notices that while the baseballs have the NFHS Authenticating Mark, they do not have the SEI/NOCSAE mark. RULING: The game shall be played, but the home plate umpire shall provide a report to the state association. The baseballs are required to have both marks to ensure that proper testing has been done on the baseballs. SEI/NOCSAE testing provides a means to maintain a consistent and uniform standard for high school competition and to ensure that every baseball manufactured meets the same level of quality and playability.

[MadMax]

Hang on, hang on, haaaaaannnnng on!

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/baseball-rules-interpretations-2020/
 

Notice the address... nfhs.org ... and the lack of any state-specific addressing. This smells of a national release! Let’s scroll on down to the aforementioned Situation 12:

SITUATION 12: At the plate conference, the home team head coach provides to the plate umpire three baseballs. The plate umpire notices that while the baseballs have the NFHS Authenticating Mark, they do not have the SEI/NOCSAE mark. RULING: The game shall be played, but the home plate umpire shall provide a report to the state association. The baseballs are required to have both marks to ensure that proper testing has been done on the baseballs. SEI/NOCSAE testing provides a means to maintain a consistent and uniform standard for high school competition and to ensure that every baseball manufactured meets the same level of quality and playability.

Now, I’m not saying that those states that institute their own mandates (“Proper balls, or don’t start the game”) are wrong. States have that authority and latitude to do so. However, I point this out because A) this will further cloud an already muddy “pool of clarity” and B) this obviously isn’t a safety issue!

So we can stop with the “oh, the kids are in danger, Imma gunna get sued!” fatalistic talk! The kids are not in peril because a/the ball lacks a NOCSAE mark! That ball is no less safe or more dangerous than this ball. Again, this isn’t a safety issue, it’s a standardization and quality controls issue! In essence, a clerical issue.

 

[johnnyg08]

Regardless of the baseballs...I want a contract that states if you're in a no-play state, the umpires will get their full game fees if we can't play with non-compliant baseballs

 

 

[Thunderheads]

9 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Regardless of the baseballs...I want a contract that states if you're in a no-play state, the umpires will get their full game fees if we can't play with non-compliant baseballs

 

 

We've been guaranteed that (at least in MY area of Michigan)

[johnnyg08]

Then if that's the case, I don't care if we play or not. 

It's their issue to take up w/ their governing body...it's not even an umpire issue...at that point it's administrative. 

[Thunderheads]

18 hours ago, MadMax said:

Hang on, hang on, haaaaaannnnng on!

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/baseball-rules-interpretations-2020/
 

Notice the address... nfhs.org ... and the lack of any state-specific addressing. This smells of a national release! Let’s scroll on down to the aforementioned Situation 12:

SITUATION 12: At the plate conference, the home team head coach provides to the plate umpire three baseballs. The plate umpire notices that while the baseballs have the NFHS Authenticating Mark, they do not have the SEI/NOCSAE mark. RULING: The game shall be played, but the home plate umpire shall provide a report to the state association. The baseballs are required to have both marks to ensure that proper testing has been done on the baseballs. SEI/NOCSAE testing provides a means to maintain a consistent and uniform standard for high school competition and to ensure that every baseball manufactured meets the same level of quality and playability.

Now, I’m not saying that those states that institute their own mandates (“Proper balls, or don’t start the game”) are wrong. States have that authority and latitude to do so. However, I point this out because A) this will further cloud an already muddy “pool of clarity” and B) this obviously isn’t a safety issue!

So we can stop with the “oh, the kids are in danger, Imma gunna get sued!” fatalistic talk! The kids are not in peril because a/the ball lacks a NOCSAE mark! That ball is no less safe or more dangerous than this ball. Again, this isn’t a safety issue, it’s a standardization and quality controls issue! In essence, a clerical issue.

 

Regardless of what the NFHS says in their sample 12:  The standard performance sheet seems to lean toward safety with words like: CoR/compression deflection load, etc?

https://nocsae.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/1521574690ND02718Stdperfspecfornewyouthbaseballs.pdf

Yes?  p.s.  NOT necessarily directed at @MadMax specifically because his assessment of the link he displayed is accurate.

[johnnyg08]

I haven't paid attention to what our state stance is...mainly because it's literally at the bottom of my list. We either have the right baseballs or we don't. 

My guess is that our state will want us to play and then force the umpire(s) to file an incident report. 

I'd love to have it be a "no play" all it would take is one story to make the news as the rest of the teams would be compliant within the week. 

But if I were in charge, I'd play the game and file an incident report because of the other costs associated with the contest. 

[The Man in Blue]

22 hours ago, MadMax said:

Hang on, hang on, haaaaaannnnng on!

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/baseball-rules-interpretations-2020/
 

Notice the address... nfhs.org ... and the lack of any state-specific addressing. This smells of a national release! Let’s scroll on down to the aforementioned Situation 12:

SITUATION 12: At the plate conference, the home team head coach provides to the plate umpire three baseballs. The plate umpire notices that while the baseballs have the NFHS Authenticating Mark, they do not have the SEI/NOCSAE mark. RULING: The game shall be played, but the home plate umpire shall provide a report to the state association. The baseballs are required to have both marks to ensure that proper testing has been done on the baseballs. SEI/NOCSAE testing provides a means to maintain a consistent and uniform standard for high school competition and to ensure that every baseball manufactured meets the same level of quality and playability.

Now, I’m not saying that those states that institute their own mandates (“Proper balls, or don’t start the game”) are wrong. States have that authority and latitude to do so. However, I point this out because A) this will further cloud an already muddy “pool of clarity” and B) this obviously isn’t a safety issue!

So we can stop with the “oh, the kids are in danger, Imma gunna get sued!” fatalistic talk! The kids are not in peril because a/the ball lacks a NOCSAE mark! That ball is no less safe or more dangerous than this ball. Again, this isn’t a safety issue, it’s a standardization and quality controls issue! In essence, a clerical issue.

 

Max, you are right ... I didn't pay attention to the link when I clicked on it.  That is direct from the NFHS's website.

I am still going to split the difference with you on the purpose (not going to disagree!) ... the NOCSAE standard is a safety standard.  What NFHS is doing with it is bastardizing it so they don't have to be on the hook or shell out more money for developing and testing another standard.

Baseball (and softball) can inherently be a dangerous sport.  Adopting safety standards acknowledges that.  My issue is with the deliberate direction to DISREGARD rules involving safety standards, namely the balls AND the chest protectors.  Why are we bothering with any equipment then?  Who cares if their helmets are cracked and missing all the inside padding?  Who cares what bats they are using?  If you DON't want the rule followed, DON'T implement the rule in the first place.

Yes, the "somebody's going to die" and "I'm going to get sued" lines are the extreme reaction, but they are not impossibilities.  That very instance is what brought all this about (although the lawsuit people point to was focused on bats and the kid was permanently brain damaged, not dead).  Unfortunately, as we know all too well in baseball, it is the extreme $#!t that has to be reacted to and causes things to change.  So why are we making the change and then purposely ignoring it?

I agree with @johnnyg08 that it would only take ONE instance of a game not being played and then it would be a non-issue from there out.  It isn't like this is a surprise or an undue burden ... they had THREE YEARS of knowing this (balls AND chest protectors).

 

Curious ... what is the NCAA's stance on this?  They adopted the NOCSAE requirement too, didn't they?

[Aging_Arbiter]

Is it just me, or should @lawump reach out to his old contact and tell them that this years rules/POE/baseballs has taken up 6 pages of contention and dislike on a respected website, and that they need to convert the entire system to OBR?

[KenBAZ]

I want to mention Jax's list doesn't distinguish a third choice. AZ is a Restict, Play and Report state. Bet teams won't go too long into the season without the proper baseballs if the HC is watching from the dugout. On the other hand, about game 5 I'm expecting some home team HC to drop a, "well we've played four games without them. How come your the only harda##" on me.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Tborze]

Seems PA is now a play and report state. 

Good Afternoon:

 

We received information from NFHS in their baseball interpretations that is contrary to the information that was disseminated as part of the Coaches/Officials Annual Rules Meetings. It has to do with whether a game can be played with balls that do not have the NOCSAE/SEI mark.

 

The 2020 NFHS Baseball Rules Book provides as follows:

 

ART. 1 ... The ball shall meet the current NOCSAE standard for baseballs at the time of manufacture and is required on balls that will be used in high school competition (Effective January 1, 2020). The SEI/NOCSAE mark is required on all balls that meet the NOCSAE standard that will be used in high school competition. Please see the mark above. A minimum of three umpire-approved baseballs shall be provided to start the game. Unless otherwise mutually agreed upon, the home team has this responsibility. No less than two baseballs shall be used to complete a game.

 

In the interpretations recently received, the game may be played as long as the NFHS Authenticating Mark is on the ball even if the NOCSAE/SEI certification is missing. The interpretation reads as follows:

 

SITUATION 12: At the plate conference, the home team head coach provides to the plate umpire three baseballs. The plate umpire notices that while the baseballs have the NFHS Authenticating Mark, they do not have the SEI/NOCSAE mark. RULING: The game shall be played, but the home plate umpire shall provide a report to the state association. The baseballs are required to have both marks to ensure that proper testing has been done on the baseballs. SEI/NOCSAE testing provides a means to maintain a consistent and uniform standard for high school competition and to ensure that every baseball manufactured meets the same level of quality and playability.

 

Please inform your schools that games are intended to be played with balls that meet the NFHS Rules requirements. However, the games may be contested this season with balls that do not have the NOCSAE/SEI testing so long as they have the NFHS Authenticating Mark.

 

A link to all the interpretations for 2020 can be accessed here: http://www.piaa.org/assets/web/documents/2020%20NFHS%20Baseball%20Rules%20Interpretations(1).pdf

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

 

Not an "interpretation".  A blatant order to disregard the rules.  "Shall meet" and "required" are pretty black and white.

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 "Shall meet" and "required" are pretty black and white.

The words mean exactly what the rules makers want them to mean.  Nothing more and nothing less.

[The Man in Blue]

No, no, no!  You don’t just get to recreate your own imaginary version of the English language.  Words have very specific meanings.  Your ignorance of the language does not change that.  Use words which have the meaning you intend.

 

It’s like those morons who believe figuratively and literally mean the same thing ... or my wife telling me she doesn’t care where we go for dinner.  No.

[MadMax]

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

... or my wife telling me she doesn’t care where we go for dinner.

You bet your ass she cares.

She cares that you ("you" in general, not "you", TMIB, specifically) can't seem to make a decision on your own. She also really cares that you didn't plan this out. She also cares very greatly that you didn't hear her hints over the past 3 weeks about the new restaurant in town that her sister, her co-workers, and her friends have all gone to and have raved about it, and she mentioned it to you (to be fair to you, it was "in passing" after you got back from doing 6 baseball games involving 2 ejections, and you just had to vent to someone).

 

As an aside, if a state entity (an official rules interpreter for that state) mandates / directs that their state is to be a "Don't Play If There's Not Both Marks" state, then that's their prerogative; the Fed is not absolute or sacrosanct. The Fed even concedes that. Where any of the states will get into trouble is if they don't publish and circulate an actual, decisive Ruling – either way.

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

No, no, no!  You don’t just get to recreate your own imaginary version of the English language.  Words have very specific meanings.  Your ignorance of the language does not change that.  Use words which have the meaning you intend.

 

It’s like those morons who believe figuratively and literally mean the same thing ... or my wife telling me she doesn’t care where we go for dinner.  No.

I should have put sarcasm quotes around it, or specifically referenced the original literary quote.

[scrounge]

23 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Not an "interpretation".  A blatant order to disregard the rules.  "Shall meet" and "required" are pretty black and white.

Just like when the rule book explicitly says that we shall not accept the line up card until all substitutes are listed. And then the very next sentence says there is no penalty if not done. Some shalls are more equal than other shalls.

[The Man in Blue]

Sorry ... another rant ...

If that is your belief, you are either not reading the book properly or not applying the rule properly.

There is no penalty; but you cannot accept the lineup and start the game.  You hand it back and they do it again. 

That doesn’t mean you ignore the rule or do whatever you want (e.g., take a half-arsed lineup card).

Sorry if this offends you, but I’m finding this opinion/point of view (words mean whatever I want them to mean) is most often provided by umpires who don’t read the rule book, don’t want want to rock the boat, and/or don’t want to do their job properly.  Get my check, get me out.

”Coach, you just have uniform numbers for your nine starters on here.”

”Is that a problem?”

”Well, just make sure you do it next time.”  (he won’t)  
 

Do your job.  Hand him the card back and have him fix it.  Why would you think “there is no penalty” overrules you “shall not accept” it?  That statement, “there is no penalty”, means you can not restrict him to the bench, eject him, disqualify his players, or assess any other thing you can make up because of it.  You do not accept the card and you do not start the game.  Pretty simple.

 

(You forgot to point out that he can add subs to the list at any point in the game.  THAT part is contradictory in purpose.)

[scrounge]

Ok, you die on your hill, I'll die on mine. And you're not sorry, no need to say it if not true.