Jump to content
Thunderheads

NFHS 2020 Rules/ PoE / Baseballs

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, maven said:

So I guess this is the open topic. Feel free to quote this post and update it directly. I'll edit to add updates. Here's the list AFAIK:

"Don't Play" states:

CA, MI, NC, OH, PA, SC

"Play and Report" states:

NJ, NY, TN, TX

So they sent out a bulletin a couple days ago in TX with an update. I'll copy and paste it here.

So TX is leaving it up to the opposing coaches. Umpires get paid no matter what.

Varsity Contests (Beginning February 24) – All games are expected to be played with compliant baseballs. If the coach does not have compliant baseballs:
o The opposing coach has the option of playing the game or not. If the opposing coach chooses not to play the game, the officials are paid and an incident report will be submitted. The District Committee will decide what happens next with regard to that game.
o If the opposing coach chooses to play the game, it will be played. The home head coach will be restricted to the bench for the remainder of the game and an incident report will be submitted.
o Once a coach is restricted to the bench, there will be NO other penalty assessed to him for the use of non-compliant baseballs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm guessing investing in a NOCSAE stamp (you KNOW hobby stores can make those) and an ink-pad is out?

And yes, that's intended as humor.  But it also underscores the point made elsewhere:  that this "safety" measure is a large steaming pile.  When sub-varsity contests are any form of play - "play regardless," "play and report," whatever - it just undercuts whatever the alleged point of all this is.  Jeff, God bless him, tries to use science to keep stupid people from looking stupid, but we all know the sub-varsity kids can still hit, and one lucky/unfortunate rocket up-the-middle changes this narrative.

So it's about money or power or "say so" rights, or something.  And there's nothing like emails from the state, right before scrimmage time, to help cloud the water more.

EDITED TO ADD:  And by the way - are we supposed to check EVERY damn last baseball?  Or just the ones we're handed at the plate meeting?  Because let's not pretend that 2-4 baseballs handed off before the first pitch are the only ones ever in play that afternoon/evening.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't share your cynicism, though I recognize that often matters of uniform (especially for officials) does seem to involve greasy palms.

  1. Using safer equipment lowers risk, sometimes by a great deal. It does not eliminate risk. The fact that some (substantial) risk remains is not a reason to think that reducing risk is pointless or stupid.
  2. Anyone who doesn't believe that equipment makes a difference is not paying attention to the science. I'm aware that a lot of Americans don't "trust" science, as if they had a plausible alternative source of knowledge.
  3. Is checking equipment really that difficult? I generally request 6 baseballs to start a game. I have plenty of time to check them all. I don't suppose my experience is that much of an outlier.
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, maven said:

I don't share your cynicism, though I recognize that often matters of uniform (especially for officials) does seem to involve greasy palms.

  1. Using safer equipment lowers risk, sometimes by a great deal. It does not eliminate risk. The fact that some (substantial) risk remains is not a reason to think that reducing risk is pointless or stupid.
  2. Anyone who doesn't believe that equipment makes a difference is not paying attention to the science. I'm aware that a lot of Americans don't "trust" science, as if they had a plausible alternative source of knowledge.
  3. Is checking equipment really that difficult? I generally request 6 baseballs to start a game. I have plenty of time to check them all. I don't suppose my experience is that much of an outlier.

Big fan of science.  Not always good at it, but a fan still.  I'm not even arguing that safer equipment lowers risk, or that reducing it is pointless.  (If I have conveyed that, it's not my intent.  My apologies.)  Where I have my issue is the sincerity shown by the various powers that be - this whole "can't play varsity, but it's okay for sub-varsity" is not a good look.  It's like saying we don't care about the JVs, middle schoolers, etc.  That *might* not be true, but that's what they're saying.  Texas is certainly taking that stance - we're "encouraged" to have the right baseballs for the sub-varsity, but there's no "No game" dictate.

I will try tp respond to the other without attitude:  No, sir, checking baseballs is not difficult.   I don't ask for a half-dozen at the start -  I'm happy to get 3-4, with the usual ".... and my pitcher has one."  I ALSO have plenty of time to check that, as you do.  Those 4-6 baseballs that you get stay the same baseballs during the whole seven innings?  No new baseballs come into the game along the way?  You know this how?  RFID?  Geo-tracking?

If all of this [redacted] is over safety, and avoiding lawsuits, then the reason I brought that up is valid.  Any personal injury lawyer worth his rep/salt is gonna explore that, and want to know if every ball in play was a legal/safe one.  That's how multi-million awards happen.  So, yeah, there's a lot of cynicism in my thought process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/1/2020 at 8:51 AM, Thunderheads said:

My only assumption is that the younger kids aren't playing with the same intensity, speed, (bat and pitch) .....so the safety factor drops now the potential NOCSEA standard?

Only thing I can think of emoji848.png

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 


 

Tell that to the 12-year old neighbor of my grandparents who died when he was hit in the chest with a line drive playing a pickup game in his own yard.

NOCSAE balls that are required by NFHS rule are safer for everybody, or they are not safer for everybody.  They are not safer for some.

If a batting helmet does not bear the NOCSAE stamp, we don’t let the player use it in a JV game.  If a catcher does not have a NOCSAE stamp on his chest protector, we don’t let him use it in a JV game.  If a bat is illegal, we don’t let the JV team use it.

Play and report is bunk.  Keep my check if you want.  Don’t hire me back if you want; it will be mutual because I’m not going to come back for a coach that wants to try to bully me into not following the rule as written.  (Written 3 years ago, I might add.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

So I'm guessing investing in a NOCSAE stamp (you KNOW hobby stores can make those) and an ink-pad is out?

And yes, that's intended as humor.  But it also underscores the point made elsewhere:  that this "safety" measure is a large steaming pile.  When sub-varsity contests are any form of play - "play regardless," "play and report," whatever - it just undercuts whatever the alleged point of all this is.  Jeff, God bless him, tries to use science to keep stupid people from looking stupid, but we all know the sub-varsity kids can still hit, and one lucky/unfortunate rocket up-the-middle changes this narrative.

So it's about money or power or "say so" rights, or something.  And there's nothing like emails from the state, right before scrimmage time, to help cloud the water more.

EDITED TO ADD:  And by the way - are we supposed to check EVERY damn last baseball?  Or just the ones we're handed at the plate meeting?  Because let's not pretend that 2-4 baseballs handed off before the first pitch are the only ones ever in play that afternoon/evening.


Coach in the 4th inning: Blue, these are used balls.  They were stamped but it rubbed off ...

Me: Nope.  Not legal.

 

I admit I work some doozy schools ... anybody care to wager on how long it takes before I hear this one:
Catcher: What are you looking for on the balls?

Me: I’m making sure they have the NOCSAE stamp.

Catcher: Why would they have a swastika on them?!

 

Edit to add: Our rules video in Illinois won’t be available till February 18.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In AZ we're playing the game, restricting the HC and reporting the team if they can't give us the correct baseballs.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

Where I have my issue is the sincerity shown by the various powers that be - this whole "can't play varsity, but it's okay for sub-varsity" is not a good look

Ohhhh, I did not notice that. Apologies: I agree with you about that. I'm surprised to hear a state association is going that route.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


 

Tell that to the 12-year old neighbor of my grandparents who died when he was hit in the chest with a line drive playing a pickup game in his own yard.

NOCSAE balls that are required by NFHS rule are safer for everybody, or they are not safer for everybody.  They are not safer for some.

If a batting helmet does not bear the NOCSAE stamp, we don’t let the player use it in a JV game.  If a catcher does not have a NOCSAE stamp on his chest protector, we don’t let him use it in a JV game.  If a bat is illegal, we don’t let the JV team use it.

Play and report is bunk.  Keep my check if you want.  Don’t hire me back if you want; it will be mutual because I’m not going to come back for a coach that wants to try to bully me into not following the rule as written.  (Written 3 years ago, I might add.)

Ok, go back and read my response again and understand the CONCEPT in which is was written.  Your original was questioning why Varsity and not JV, yes?  My response starts with .... 

The only assumption I can come up with ....   it's a summation, a  guess.  I never said I agreed with it, or was ok with it.  I was just simply trying to guess why Varsity  and not JV as you queried.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

So I'm guessing investing in a NOCSAE stamp (you KNOW hobby stores can make those) and an ink-pad is out?

And yes, that's intended as humor.  But it also underscores the point made elsewhere:  that this "safety" measure is a large steaming pile.  When sub-varsity contests are any form of play - "play regardless," "play and report," whatever - it just undercuts whatever the alleged point of all this is.  Jeff, God bless him, tries to use science to keep stupid people from looking stupid, but we all know the sub-varsity kids can still hit, and one lucky/unfortunate rocket up-the-middle changes this narrative.

So it's about money or power or "say so" rights, or something.  And there's nothing like emails from the state, right before scrimmage time, to help cloud the water more.

EDITED TO ADD:  And by the way - are we supposed to check EVERY damn last baseball?  Or just the ones we're handed at the plate meeting?  Because let's not pretend that 2-4 baseballs handed off before the first pitch are the only ones ever in play that afternoon/evening.

Same response to you as I did with @The Man in Blue ....  

I didn't try to use science in any way ....it was a guess, a summation as to why Varsity, and not JV.  It wasn't that it was WHY, or that I agree with it, but just a guess.   The whole Varsity , but not JV is rather asinine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/1/2020 at 11:29 AM, wolfe_man said:

This is a mess. Assignor wasn’t sure either.  Updated: Assignor comes back after talking to local rules interpreter - they're saying play and report.  I am sure this will be hot topic at our first association meeting in 2 weeks.

I agree with you - Dan is final word and said no mark - no game.

Wolfe Man,

 

I was at the local interpreters meeting and the first face to face meeting in Zanesville last Thursday night, Dan was quite clear that if there are no 'noxy' ball, no game, no matter the level.

 

It is wrong to do this, but that is what is .  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Ok, go back and read my response again and understand the CONCEPT in which is was written.  Your original was questioning why Varsity and not JV, yes?  My response starts with .... 

The only assumption I can come up with ....   it's a summation, a  guess.  I never said I agreed with it, or was ok with it.  I was just simply trying to guess why Varsity  and not JV as you queried.

Thunder,

 

Please tell me why NOCASE balls are safer than other, older baseballs for High School players to use. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, maven said:

I don't share your cynicism, though I recognize that often matters of uniform (especially for officials) does seem to involve greasy palms.

  1. Using safer equipment lowers risk, sometimes by a great deal. It does not eliminate risk. The fact that some (substantial) risk remains is not a reason to think that reducing risk is pointless or stupid.
  2. Anyone who doesn't believe that equipment makes a difference is not paying attention to the science. I'm aware that a lot of Americans don't "trust" science, as if they had a plausible alternative source of knowledge.
  3. Is checking equipment really that difficult? I generally request 6 baseballs to start a game. I have plenty of time to check them all. I don't suppose my experience is that much of an outlier.

Maven,

I'll ask you the same question I just thunderheads above: What makes a NOCASE stamped baseball any safer than any older baseballs used in HS Baseball? Where is the data that shows there is some kind of safety improvement in newer baseballs with the NOCASE seal than other baseballs?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, jkumpire said:

Thunder,

 

Please tell me why NOCASE balls are safer than other, older baseballs for High School players to use. 

I can't tell you 'why' ... I'm not a NOCSEA engineer ;) ....   go to their site under baseballs.   Supposedly they created standards like they did bats, ... COR values, (trampoline effect), etc ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/30/2020 at 9:36 AM, Thunderheads said:

Is there any detail on what the NOCSAE mark means?

ON EDIT!  FOUND IT!

https://nocsae.org/standard/standard-performance-specification-for-newly-manufactured-baseballs-2/

@jkumpire ... here it is ...I thought I posted it ......... it's back on page 1 .........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, jkumpire said:

Wolfe Man,

 

I was at the local interpreters meeting and the first face to face meeting in Zanesville last Thursday night, Dan was quite clear that if there are no 'noxy' ball, no game, no matter the level.

 

It is wrong to do this, but that is what is .  

I wanted to come, but didn't want to make the drive down to Z-ville last week.  So, I looked at the online version on Friday.  I understood the exact thing.  Going to be interesting...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

@jkumpire ... here it is ...I thought I posted it ......... it's back on page 1 .........

You want the specs linked on that page. That's as far as I care to dive, but there's more behind the adoption of the standards listed in this document (they're not arbitrary).

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/3/2020 at 7:53 AM, maven said:

So I guess this is the open topic. Feel free to quote this post and update it directly. I'll edit to add updates. Here's the list AFAIK (2/4/2020):

"Don't Play" states:

CA, MI, NC, OH, PA, SC

"Play and Report" states:

AZ, NJ, NY, TN, TX

Florida is Play and Report

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Thunderheads said:

It's a JAXROLO SIGHTING!!!!  :yippie: 

HAHAHAHA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jkumpire said:

Thunder,

 

Please tell me why NOCASE balls are safer than other, older baseballs for High School players to use. 

They are now subjected to stringent (scientifically based) testing by an independent organization to ensure that each manufacturer's baseballs comply with the standards for baseballs set by the NFHS.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

Ok, go back and read my response again and understand the CONCEPT in which is was written.  Your original was questioning why Varsity and not JV, yes?  My response starts with .... 

The only assumption I can come up with ....   it's a summation, a  guess.  I never said I agreed with it, or was ok with it.  I was just simply trying to guess why Varsity  and not JV as you queried.


Sorry if I was muddy ... I understood your point and fully agree with your assessment of somebody else’s failed logic.  As I said before, that is a total BS attitude (of the person issuing that ruling).  The entire “It’s just ...” attitude is one that is careless and willfully negligent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, lawump said:

They are now subjected to stringent (scientifically based) testing by an independent organization to ensure that each manufacturer's baseballs comply with the standards for baseballs set by the NFHS.  


Not exactly ... NOCSAE doesn’t test anything.  They establish the standard and collect royalties for using their stamp.  It is entirely up to manufacturers to do their own testing using the NOCSAE developed standards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jkumpire said:

Maven,

I'll ask you the same question I just thunderheads above: What makes a NOCASE stamped baseball any safer than any older baseballs used in HS Baseball? Where is the data that shows there is some kind of safety improvement in newer baseballs with the NOCASE seal than other baseballs?

 


There is no claim that a new stamped ball is safer than an old unstamped ball.  An old unstamped ball may have been safer, but there was no testing or certification process to show where the old ball stands.  Even now you could have an unstamped ball that absorbs more impact than a stamped ball, but the manufacturer chooses not to test it by NOCSAE standards or pay the royalty to stamp it.

The exact same thing is true of catcher’s chest protectors.

 

Controversial opinion (not necessarily mine): The development of a minimum standard deters manufacturers from going above and beyond and developing better, safer products.  “This” is what a ball must do, so “this” is what we will make it do.  We could do better, but why sink the additional cost into R&D and manufacturing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:


 It is entirely up to manufacturers to do their own testing using the NOCSAE developed standards.

The manufacturers will do their own testing, of course, but the baseballs will be independently tested by one or two (I can't remember which) independent (university based) labs retained by the NFHS using the standards promulgated by NOCSAE.  I have personally met the professors who run the sports testing labs at these two major research universities.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...