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NFHS 2020 Rules/ PoE / Baseballs

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18 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


Correct, NFHS can’t make the independent state associations do anything.  They can do things like withhold voting roles, seats on committees, etc.  Consider that more of “strongly recommend”.

I know I’m not the only one, and I know I sound like a broken record ... but willfully instructing umpires to ignore rules passed for safety does not sit right with me.  Repeal the rule or follow it.  You can’t have it both ways.  It does not end well.

Attorney:  Mr. Blue, you are aware that NFHS requires schools to use NOCSAE approved balls for improved safety, correct?
Umpire: Yes, sir.

Attorney:  And was the ball that killed my client’s son a NOCSAE approved baseball?
Umpire: Well, no, but ...

Attorney: And were you the umpire that allowed the game to be played using an unapproved baseball?
Umpire: Well, yes, but ...

Attorney: Thank you.  That’s all.

Yes, but...

If you have a half-decent attorney yourself, they'll have documentation and communication (notes, emails, testimony of other officials at meetings) to prove you were instructed to play the game with the unapproved baseballs. Of course, NFHS, NOCSAE, your officials organization, the state organization, both coaches, both ADs, and the school districts will all be sued, too.

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10 minutes ago, yawetag said:

Yes, but...

If you have a half-decent attorney yourself, they'll have documentation and communication (notes, emails, testimony of other officials at meetings) to prove you were instructed to play the game with the unapproved baseballs. Of course, NFHS, NOCSAE, your officials organization, the state organization, both coaches, both ADs, and the school districts will all be sued, too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  THIS! :nod: 

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19 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:


Correct, NFHS can’t make the independent state associations do anything.  They can do things like withhold voting roles, seats on committees, etc.  Consider that more of “strongly recommend”.

I know I’m not the only one, and I know I sound like a broken record ... but willfully instructing umpires to ignore rules passed for safety does not sit right with me.  Repeal the rule or follow it.  You can’t have it both ways.  It does not end well.

Attorney:  Mr. Blue, you are aware that NFHS requires schools to use NOCSAE approved balls for improved safety, correct?
Umpire: Yes, sir.

Attorney:  And was the ball that killed my client’s son a NOCSAE approved baseball?
Umpire: Well, no, but ...

Attorney: And were you the umpire that allowed the game to be played using an unapproved baseball?
Umpire: Well, yes, but ...

Attorney: Thank you.  That’s all.

Is there somewhere the NFHS said this rule change is for safety?  From what I can see, this is not a safety compliance change, it's a consistency change..

Rationale:

To maintain a consistent and uniform standard for high school competition. To ensure every baseball meets the same level of quality and playability 

 If this was a safety issue, I'd assume the rational would be worded more along the lines of ":To ensure the safety of all participants". 

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2 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Is there somewhere the NFHS said this rule change is for safety?  From what I can see, this is not a safety compliance change, it's a consistency change..

Rationale:

To maintain a consistent and uniform standard for high school competition. To ensure every baseball meets the same level of quality and playability 

 If this was a safety issue, I'd assume the rational would be worded more along the lines of ":To ensure the safety of all participants". 

National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment
 
The National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) is a non-profit organization operating in the United States, whose mission is to reduce athletic injuries and death through standards and certification for athletic equipment.
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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:
National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment
 
The National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment (NOCSAE) is a non-profit organization operating in the United States, whose mission is to reduce athletic injuries and death through standards and certification for athletic equipment.

I'm just a little dubious of a safety authorization on a baseball. I mean, I understand it on a helmet, chest protector, etc... But a baseball?

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Great ....2 days after our State Rules meeting with umpires and coaches were we told them PA is a "NO Play" state.............I just checked PIAA.org.......no sign of a reversal of that decision so far.. 

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3 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I'm just a little dubious of a safety authorization on a baseball. I mean, I understand it on a helmet, chest protector, etc... But a baseball?

the only thing I can think of is COR value improvements (decreased trampoline/compression effect)

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3 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I'm just a little dubious of a safety authorization on a baseball. I mean, I understand it on a helmet, chest protector, etc... But a baseball?

After reading up on it, its to establish a standard coefficient of restitution. After a year of discussion on "juiced baseballs" in MLB since Rawlings was purchased by MLB, it may have merit....    

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Thunderheads beat me to it ... NOCSAE's purpose is not for standardizing play or the quality of play.  Yes, the standard is the same concept as bat standards: a standard for (reduced) impact force, exit velocity, etc.

Oh, I quite agree everybody is getting sued in that equation.  Out of that group, I have the shallowest pockets ... both for the plaintiff and for an attorney. 

My point is: WHY are they putting us in this position?

It is aggravating enough when we are provided rules that NFHS wants an opposite interpretation to, but when you start rolling out safety rules and then REQUIRE us not to follow them ... honestly, it is one more reason for a guy not to umpire baseball.  I don't see these issues in the other sports I work.

Why should I require legal bats and legal helmets when you are instructing me to allow illegal chest protectors and illegal balls?

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3 hours ago, Richvee said:

I'm just a little dubious of a safety authorization on a baseball. I mean, I understand it on a helmet, chest protector, etc... But a baseball?

The new baseballs are supposed to NOT hurt as much when you get hit....  :clap::clap::givebeer:

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On 2/12/2020 at 10:54 AM, The Man in Blue said:

Out of that group, I have the shallowest pockets ... both for the plaintiff and for an attorney. 

Shall I introduce you to NASO?

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2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

What the hell does space travel have to do with this?  :P

Jake Gyllenhaal GIF

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Guys, as @Richvee pointed out, it's more to do with standardization than it is for blatant safety.

Consider that NOCSAE isn't actually an "independent third party". Instead, it's a consortium comprised of representatives from the manufacturers as well as these institutions:

  • American Academy of Pediatrics
  • American College of Sports Medicine
  • American Medical Society for Sports Medicine
  • Athletic Equipment Managers Association
  • National Athletic Equipment Reconditioners Association
  • National Athletic Trainers' Association
  • Sporting and Fitness Industry Association
  • American Football Coaches Association
  • American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine

Additionally, there are representatives from the NCAA and NFHS included as non-voting liaisons. Because the NFHS is a government entity (ie. public), they cannot exclude a company from selling baseballs (or other equipment) that meets their published specifications. If the specs call for a 9-in. / 5 oz. baseball with a cork & rubber core and a leather casing, they can't exclude a baseball company that meets those specifications, regardless of how that baseball is constructed internally. So, as long as the baseballs meet those specs, a company can label the baseball as compliant with the NFHS spec, because the NFHS "logo" or "mark" is a publicly recognized mark.

When a case of liability is reviewed, and that baseball is "entered into evidence", questions will be raised as to: Who certified that baseball? Why is that baseball regarded as certified? What methods are in place to determine compliance? Who determined the standards to which that baseball had to meet? The NFHS cannot be the sole answer to those questions.

However, because NOCSAE is organized as a Registered Entity (guys like @lawump would know the formal term), and comprised of those member organizations and institutions, it can and must be the answer to those questions. In order to obtain a manifest of specifications, right down to the minutiae and smallest detail, you must be a member of, or at least be applying to, one of those listed consortium members. You must be a NOCSAE -recognized manufacturer to be a part of the group. And, most importantly, you have to divulge (at least with NOCSAE) the manufacturing and testing processes you are in compliance with when producing those baseballs. Then, and only then, are you "licensed" to place the NOCSAE seal on the baseball.

There's a reason we haven't seen the NOCSAE baseball logo/mark/seal online... because NOCSAE doesn't want to make it easy for some shady outfit to "lift it" and place it on baseballs outside of their approved domain! Certainly, if you read the fine print on the NOCSAE web documents regarding this act, there are some very, very stiff penalties for recreating and/or placing the NOCSAE seal upon gear outside of their specified approval list.

It can't completely be a "safety thing". There's no discussion or language about NOCSAE seal being present on scrimmage and practice baseballs, for example. Amateur players are just as likely to get hurt in practice or in the batting cage as they are during an actual, sanctioned varsity game. I have a hunch, too, that in JV/Freshman/Unsanctioned games, it's not really going to matter whether or not these baseballs have the NOCSAE seal (it's a _hunch_, I have no knowledge as to its certainty or not). But for sanctioned Varsity games, adherent to the standards of the NFHS (and/or the State in which the contest is being played), have to have NOCSAE -certified baseballs. Safety aside, this is likely to prevent a coach or AD from "skimping" and getting a few dozen boxes of BusterCo Baseballs on the cheap from Rakuten, Alibaba or Amazon, direct from China, wherein out of a box of 12, maybe 2 or 3 look the same.

Here are some examples, all available today from a... discount online retailer / wholesaler:
image.png.ba59e723c9f4b682215fcaecbf079a27.pngimage.png.f012c004b3bcf71d0b2f89141b35233a.pngimage.png.608d0570caeed70d6eab97ad5574f336.pngimage.png.9c6b25c4af45c4c0aa4facc589077d32.png  

 

Here, I'm going to pick on Diamond a little bit... Can you spot the difference?

image.png.1a9bfa0b0437c4fcd61f7f499e0485f1.png  image.png.ee227e4c163bf1c043c18a245c037981.png

 

Both are "approved" for NFHS High School play (last year), are they not? So why are the D1-HS's on the left $71 / dozen, while the DOL-1-HS on the right are $45 / dozen??

Yeah, I can see why somebody wanted needed these to be standardized, especially when everyone is kerfluffle about "the ball being juiced" in MLB.

 

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@MadMax, in much of your post you are mixing up NOCSAE and NFHS.  I have a lot of respect for your posts, but this one is full misinformation.

NOCSAE standards are about standardization, but they are safety-based, not quality of play based.  NFHS (and NCAA) may be using them for the side-consequence of standardization.  NFHS did not need NOCSAE’s standard to say “our games must be played with a ball of X size, Y weight, and made of materials A, B, and C”.  They were already doing that.

Of course NOCSAE is a consortium ... it is in their name: National Operating COMMITTEE on Standards for Athletic Equipment.  You seem to imply they are some shill, and that is not the case.  Did you notice those organizations you listed are mostly health and safety based?  What does the America Pediatric Association care about making sure NFHS baseballs are all the same?  They don’t.  They care about a safer standard.  https://nocsae.org/about-nocsae/history/

NFHS is not a government entity.  Not by any stretch of the imagination.  

The NFHS “authenticating Mark” mark signifies the ball meets the rule requirements to be used in NFHS contests.  https://www.nfhs.org/AuthenticatingMark

The NOCSAE stamp (on the packaging ... there is NO stamp for the ball itself) means the ball was manufactured to specs that meet thresholds for “performance requirements in the weight, compression deflection load, circumference, and coefficient of restitution for new baseballs as supplied by manufacturers.”. https://nocsae.org/standard/standard-performance-specification-for-newly-manufactured-baseballs-2/

If you really want to be conspiratorial, say the marks are simply to make the manufacturers pay royalties for using the marks.  That would be more accurate.

To obtain NOCSAE certification for a specific piece of equipment: “Manufacturers seeking to certify their products to NOCSAE standards will need to submit necessary testing fees, product testing samples, product labels, quality program manuals and other required materials to SEI. Manufacturers also will participate in a quality audit and review protocols for responding.”  https://nocsae.org/certification/sei/
 

You have seen the NOCSAE baseball stamp online and in this thread.  It looks like this: EF478414-E24A-43DE-996B-3778F4914B84.jpeg.c416c647f2c1c0d8b35d17ae94c990bf.jpeg

It will ONLY appear on the box the balls came in, so you will likely NOT see it as an umpire.  The balls themselves will NOT have that stamp.  They will contain a “tag line” and information on the NOCSAE spec they meet. https://nocsae.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/1521574690ND02718Stdperfspecfornewyouthbaseballs.pdf


Your first set of pics only show the NFHS authenticating mark (well, 3 of the 4 anyway).  There is no NOCSAE info shown.

Your second set of pics is a good example (but bad picture) of what we should be looking for.  I can see the difference pretty quickly.  Both are legal, you can see the NOCSAE information at the bottom.  The difference is in the materials they are made of, however BOTH are NFHS authenticated and NOCSAE approved.

 

 

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13 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

One of these is legal, one is not.  Which is which?

Baseball-Option-2-980x757.jpg

The one on the right is legal. 

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19 hours ago, MadMax said:

Guys, as @Richvee pointed out, it's more to do with standardization than it is for blatant safety.

Consider that NOCSAE isn't actually an "independent third party". Instead, it's a consortium comprised of representatives from the manufacturers as well as these institutions:

  • American Academy of Pediatrics
  • American College of Sports Medicine
  • American Medical Society for Sports Medicine
  • Athletic Equipment Managers Association
  • National Athletic Equipment Reconditioners Association
  • National Athletic Trainers' Association
  • Sporting and Fitness Industry Association
  • American Football Coaches Association
  • American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine

Additionally, there are representatives from the NCAA and NFHS included as non-voting liaisons. Because the NFHS is a government entity (ie. public), they cannot exclude a company from selling baseballs (or other equipment) that meets their published specifications. If the specs call for a 9-in. / 5 oz. baseball with a cork & rubber core and a leather casing, they can't exclude a baseball company that meets those specifications, regardless of how that baseball is constructed internally. So, as long as the baseballs meet those specs, a company can label the baseball as compliant with the NFHS spec, because the NFHS "logo" or "mark" is a publicly recognized mark.

When a case of liability is reviewed, and that baseball is "entered into evidence", questions will be raised as to: Who certified that baseball? Why is that baseball regarded as certified? What methods are in place to determine compliance? Who determined the standards to which that baseball had to meet? The NFHS cannot be the sole answer to those questions.

However, because NOCSAE is organized as a Registered Entity (guys like @lawump would know the formal term), and comprised of those member organizations and institutions, it can and must be the answer to those questions. In order to obtain a manifest of specifications, right down to the minutiae and smallest detail, you must be a member of, or at least be applying to, one of those listed consortium members. You must be a NOCSAE -recognized manufacturer to be a part of the group. And, most importantly, you have to divulge (at least with NOCSAE) the manufacturing and testing processes you are in compliance with when producing those baseballs. Then, and only then, are you "licensed" to place the NOCSAE seal on the baseball.

There's a reason we haven't seen the NOCSAE baseball logo/mark/seal online... because NOCSAE doesn't want to make it easy for some shady outfit to "lift it" and place it on baseballs outside of their approved domain! Certainly, if you read the fine print on the NOCSAE web documents regarding this act, there are some very, very stiff penalties for recreating and/or placing the NOCSAE seal upon gear outside of their specified approval list.

It can't completely be a "safety thing". There's no discussion or language about NOCSAE seal being present on scrimmage and practice baseballs, for example. Amateur players are just as likely to get hurt in practice or in the batting cage as they are during an actual, sanctioned varsity game. I have a hunch, too, that in JV/Freshman/Unsanctioned games, it's not really going to matter whether or not these baseballs have the NOCSAE seal (it's a _hunch_, I have no knowledge as to its certainty or not). But for sanctioned Varsity games, adherent to the standards of the NFHS (and/or the State in which the contest is being played), have to have NOCSAE -certified baseballs. Safety aside, this is likely to prevent a coach or AD from "skimping" and getting a few dozen boxes of BusterCo Baseballs on the cheap from Rakuten, Alibaba or Amazon, direct from China, wherein out of a box of 12, maybe 2 or 3 look the same.

Here are some examples, all available today from a... discount online retailer / wholesaler:
image.png.ba59e723c9f4b682215fcaecbf079a27.pngimage.png.f012c004b3bcf71d0b2f89141b35233a.pngimage.png.608d0570caeed70d6eab97ad5574f336.pngimage.png.9c6b25c4af45c4c0aa4facc589077d32.png  

 

Here, I'm going to pick on Diamond a little bit... Can you spot the difference?

image.png.1a9bfa0b0437c4fcd61f7f499e0485f1.png  image.png.ee227e4c163bf1c043c18a245c037981.png

 

Both are "approved" for NFHS High School play (last year), are they not? So why are the D1-HS's on the left $71 / dozen, while the DOL-1-HS on the right are $45 / dozen??

Yeah, I can see why somebody wanted needed these to be standardized, especially when everyone is kerfluffle about "the ball being juiced" in MLB.

 

I can speak from experience on the Diamond baseballs from my coaching time. We used the DOL-1 as practice balls and the D1-HS as game balls. The D1 ball was a much better performing and durable baseball that wouldn't get "soft" during games. 

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On 1/30/2020 at 8:15 AM, Forest Ump said:

Our position in Northern CA is the game does not start. Same position we had when the balls had to be NFHS stamped. Have never had an issue with this.

Keep checking your balls all game long

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8 hours ago, JSam21 said:

I can speak from experience on the Diamond baseballs from my coaching time. We used the DOL-1 as practice balls and the D1-HS as game balls. The D1 ball was a much better performing and durable baseball that wouldn't get "soft" during games. 

More about one baseball brand that wanted a corner on the high school market??

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1 hour ago, blue23ll said:

More about one baseball brand that wanted a corner on the high school market??

I count 13 manufacturers making 44 different balls across 14 brands on the SEI (Safety Equipment Institute) list of approved balls:

 
NOCSAE: Baseballs
Baden Sports, Inc.
Bownet Sports
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Baden Sports 2BBG-NFHS-00 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Baden Sports 3B-NFHS-05 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Baden Sports 3B-PPRO-05 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
BSN Sports LLC
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Bownet Sports BN-100 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Bownet Sports BN-200 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Champion Sports
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Mac Gregor #97 MCB97MLH Mac Gregor #97 Major League Baseball NFHS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding 500 SERIES 41101HS 500 SERIES NFHS BASEBALL Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding NFHS 41106HS SPALDING 100 Baseball Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41129 SPALDING PRO Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100CT SPALDING PRO NFHS CONNECTICUT BASEBALL Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100HS SPALDING PRO NFHS BASEBALL Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100KY SPALDING PRO KHSAA OFFICIAL NFHS SERIES BASEBALL Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100MA SPALDING PRO NFHS/MIAA TOURNAMENT BASEBALL (RS) Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100NY SPALDING PRO NFHS/NYSPHSAA TOURNAMENT BASEBALL (RS) Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100UA SPALDING PRO COLLEGIATE BASEBALL (FLAT SEAM) Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100UA SPALDING PRO NFHS/NYSPHSAA TOURNAMENT BASEBALL (RS) Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Spalding PRO 41100WV WVSSAC OFFICIAL PRO SERIES BASEBALL Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Champro Sports
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Champion Sports OLB10HS, OLBPRO Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
D-BAT
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Champro CBB200HS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Champro CBB300HS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Diamond Sports
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
D-BAT PRO T NOCSAE Baseball: Type High  
Martin Sports
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Diamond Sports D1-HS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Diamond Sports D1-LS HS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Diamond Sports DOL-1 HS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Diamond Sports DOL-A HS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Diamond Sports D1-PRO HS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Marucci Sports
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
PROMARK by Martin M1-PRO Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
PROMARK by Martin OLB10 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Pro Nine Sports
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Marucci MOBBL9-12 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Rawlings
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
ProNine Sports NFHS, NFHSA Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
ProNine Sports NFHS1 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
ProNine Sports PRO NFHS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Riddell Inc.
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Rawlings FSRHSN Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Rawlings R100-H2, RNFHS, RCIFSS Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Rawlings RNF Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Rawlings R100-H1, R100HSNF, RIESA, CIFSS, RMICH-EI, RMPANF, R100HSNFSC, R100-OHIO Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Rawlings R100-H3, RNFC, RMHSAA, SIHS, RHS, RSCHSL Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Wilson Sporting Goods Co.
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Riddell R42202 BB-PRO Professional (NOCSAE Baseball Type High)  
Riddell R42201 BB-ML Major League (NOCSAE Baseball Type High)  
NOCSAE: Protector for Commotio Cordis
Brand Name Model # Size/Class/Configuration  
Wilson WTA1010HS1 Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Wilson WTA1010PROSST Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Wilson WTA1015 (A1015) Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Wilson WTA1029BSNHS (BSN-HS) Baseball - NOCSAE Type High  
Wilson WTA1029BTT99SST (TT99 SST) Baseball - NOCSAE Type High
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1 hour ago, kylehutson said:

Add Kansas to the "Play and report" list

Was this said at a rules meeting? I haven't made it to one yet (there's one more in my area), but that's consistent with what my assignor said.

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