On deck batter

[jjskitours]

A coach wants to know if on deck batter can use a tee if he does so behind the dugout. 
My first inclination is to say NO since players are required to be in dugout unless on the field, on deck circle or warming up in bullpen. Any thoughts?

[noumpere]

2001, SITUATION 1: The home team has an enclosed batting cage behind its dugout. During the game, batters will take batting practice before batting in the game. The visiting coach complains to the plate umpire and wants the plate umpire to either allow his team to hit before its at-bats, or not allow anyone to use the batting cage during the game. RULING: The umpire has no jurisdiction over the use of equipment or facilities outside the confines of the field. This is a matter that must be settled between the coaches or their league. However, if batting practice is taken during the game and the sound of the metal bats becomes distracting, the umpire can prohibit further use of the batting cage. (10-2-3; Approved Ruling 1990)

[maven]

3.3.1 SITUATION BB: Team A has one of its players in uniform in the bleachers behind home plate or in the bleachers along the third-base line.

RULING: All players, attendants and bench personnel shall remain in the dugout (bench) or bullpen at all times, unless they are a batter, runner, on-deck batter, an occupant of a coach’s box or one of the nine players on defense. The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature, in which case the umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the offense. Failure to comply shall result in the game being forfeited.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, maven said:

3.3.1 SITUATION BB: Team A has one of its players in uniform in the bleachers behind home plate or in the bleachers along the third-base line.

RULING: All players, attendants and bench personnel shall remain in the dugout (bench) or bullpen at all times, unless they are a batter, runner, on-deck batter, an occupant of a coach’s box or one of the nine players on defense. The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature, in which case the umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the offense. Failure to comply shall result in the game being forfeited.

 

Is the "on deck" batter required to be in the on deck circle, ie. on the field?   That would be a loophole for this ruling.   In other words, is "on deck" a physical place, or a description of your position in the line up? 

To the original question, depending on the field, often times the "bullpen", or, more accurately, the area where relief pitchers warm up, is right behind the dugout, and if no pitchers are warming up, the "in the hole" batter might go in this "bullpen" area to take some swings into a net before going on deck.    In others, the batting cage is the bullpen.

The context is there is a "team area" for players to remain - that includes bench and bullpen AREAS, and not the stands or beer garden. 

[Senor Azul]

Here are a couple of applicable NFHS rules:

1-2-3: The on-deck circle should be to the side and away from home plate, 37 feet if space allows. Neither team’s players shall warm up in the other team’s on-deck circle. The on-deck circle does not have to be occupied, but if a player wishes to warm up, he shall do so only in his team’s on-deck circle, provided the on-deck circle is located safely away from home plate. (2-23)

1-3-4:  Only bats may be used in warming up (including weighted bats used for this purpose) at any location. Only bats and items designed to remain part of the bat, such as weighted bats, batting donuts, and wind-resistant devices are legal at any location.

[ilyazhito]

I would also say no, because the on-deck batter can only be in the on-deck circle or in his dugout. No one except a pitcher, catcher, bullpen coach, protector, or player acting as catcher should be in the bullpen, and since an on-deck batter is none of the above, he must be in the on-deck circle or dugout. 

[MadMax]

On 4/2/2018 at 8:54 AM, noumpere said:

RULING: The umpire has no jurisdiction over the use of equipment or facilities outside the confines of the field.

This is the key component that needs to be stated, and re-stated, ad nauseam until it sinks in. It basically says, "Don't go looking for trouble outside of your purview". If an on-deck batter (or any batter, for that matter) is behind the dugout, outside the confines of the field, then why are we (as umpires) concerned with it?

"But but but, MadMax!", you'll say, "What about this other bit that Maven quoted?!"

On 4/2/2018 at 10:12 AM, maven said:

RULING: All players, attendants and bench personnel shall remain in the dugout (bench) or bullpen at all times, unless they are a batter, runner, on-deck batter, an occupant of a coach’s box or one of the nine players on defense. The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature, in which case the umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the offense. Failure to comply shall result in the game being forfeited.

If this was a hard-&-fast rule, with strict and utmost adherence, then games would grind to an utter halt. Who's going to shag and track down foul balls (inside the confines or outside, in DBT)? Who's going to bring new baseballs, or water, to the umpire during dead ball times? And, barring complete restrooms attached to or in each dugout (extremely rare), how can we conceivably keep 18-30 teenagers (or more) from relieving themselves for 2 hours?

When a hitter jacks a Home Run (over the fence), while we may not actively endorse it, do we not tolerate the batter's bench coming out to congratulate him at HP?

Additionally, Fed Rules acknowledge and allow for the inclusion of any JV or Freshman players (with notification, of course) at any time! So, in essence, a JV player (or several) can walk up, in uniform, having already played in a JV game on an adjacent field, and sit in the stands and watch the game. Then, at any point, the coach(es) can beckon him into the dugout so as to add and include him to the game! And we're not supposed to prevent him from doing so!

No, what Maven is stating is intended to equip you with the ability to deal with A) what goes on within the confines of the field, and B) what activity may directly affect the conduction of the game at hand (e.g. players or coaches leaving the dugout so as to go up in the stands and scout, distract, or gain an advantage over the other team, or to criticize the umpire(s)).

One of my colleagues got himself into a precarious "sticky and smelly spot" during a game at a high school that not only supported full Varsity, JV and Freshman teams, but had fields upon which to conduct games around the same time as, if not simultaneous to, the featured Varsity game. The Varsity field had an attached, but secluded (not exposed in LBT) bullpen with several bumps and plates. As it turns out, a Freshman pitcher and his catcher entered the bullpen from the outer gate so as to warm up for their impending game (or game underway, details unclear). This colleague made a point of stopping the game to direct the Varsity Head Coach, who he was already at odds with, to order the Freshman catcher, who was not participating in the game-at-hand, to put a mask on. The coach's ultimate response? "Worry about the game inside the fence, FirstName". Well, needless to say, it escalated and the colleague "had to" eject the HC.

Where does this relate to the OP? Simple... If a coach asks you "Can a batter warm up behind my dugout?", reply with, "Can I see the backside of your dugout from here?" "Uh, no." "Does the backside of your dugout have a view or angle upon the mound?" "Uhhh.... I don't think... no." "Then there isn't a problem. If it becomes a problem, FirstName, I'll have to step in and deal with it. Until that happens, let's have a good game, eh FirstName?"

[Senor Azul]

“A coach wants to know if on deck batter can use a tee if he does so behind the dugout.” That is the question posed in the OP. I posted the applicable rules to answer the question on April 2. MadMax posted his response 4 days later. Now I would like to ask him (and the two members who liked his post) if they read my post and just chose to ignore the actual rules that cover this scenario.

By rule (2018 NFHS rule 1-2-3), the on-deck batter has to use his team’s on-deck circle if he chooses to warm up. By rule (2018 NFHS rule 1-3-4), when he warms up he cannot use a batting tee—only bats and items designed to remain part of the bat.

Additionally, isn’t there a legal aspect to this scenario? If we as umpires allowed players to take bats off the playing field to practice aren’t we liable if, for example, a spectator was hurt by that bat?

One last question and this is for the original poster, Mr. jjskitours, what did you tell your coach after reading all the replies to your post?

[beerguy55]

On 12/30/2018 at 4:26 PM, Senor Azul said:

“A coach wants to know if on deck batter can use a tee if he does so behind the dugout.” That is the question posed in the OP. I posted the applicable rules to answer the question on April 2. MadMax posted his response 4 days later. Now I would like to ask him (and the two members who liked his post) if they read my post and just chose to ignore the actual rules that cover this scenario.

By rule (2018 NFHS rule 1-2-3), the on-deck batter has to use his team’s on-deck circle if he chooses to warm up. By rule (2018 NFHS rule 1-3-4), when he warms up he cannot use a batting tee—only bats and items designed to remain part of the bat.

Additionally, isn’t there a legal aspect to this scenario? If we as umpires allowed players to take bats off the playing field to practice aren’t we liable if, for example, a spectator was hurt by that bat?

One last question and this is for the original poster, Mr. jjskitours, what did you tell your coach after reading all the replies to your post?

I would be interested in the FED position on whether or not the "in the hole" batter would be allowed to hit off a tee behind the dugout.   To me that's more a facility question than a real rule question - to your legal concern.  If the facility allows it as a batting warm-up area I hope FED would stay out of it from a rules perspective (for everyone but the on deck batter).  It is also, for me, a more practical way to let a batter get some practice swings in game - as a coach I would never want my on deck batter behind the dugout.

For the on deck batter - personally, I think it's more about ensuring the on deck batter is on the field and ready to go to the plate in the most expedient manner, so, if the on deck hitter wants to sit in the dugout and not warm-up that would be his choice - being behind the dugout and hitting off a tee would risk slowing the game down.

I am, however, disappointed that, with all their apparent focus on safety, that FED would not allow an on deck batter to take the on deck circle that is behind the batter, and, in spite of the explicit rule, I would be disappointed in any umpire that did not allow this, provided the on deck batter is not purposefully impeding the coach's line of sight to the catcher.

 

[JSam21]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I would be interested in the FED position on whether or not the "in the hole" batter would be allowed to hit off a tee behind the dugout.   To me that's more a facility question than a real rule question - to your legal concern.  If the facility allows it as a batting warm-up area I hope FED would stay out of it from a rules perspective (for everyone but the on deck batter).  It is also, for me, a more practical way to let a batter get some practice swings in game - as a coach I would never want my on deck batter behind the dugout.

For the on deck batter - personally, I think it's more about ensuring the on deck batter is on the field and ready to go to the plate in the most expedient manner, so, if the on deck hitter wants to sit in the dugout and not warm-up that would be his choice - being behind the dugout and hitting off a tee would risk slowing the game down.

I am, however, disappointed that, with all their apparent focus on safety, that FED would not allow an on deck batter to take the on deck circle that is behind the batter, and, in spite of the explicit rule, I would be disappointed in any umpire that did not allow this, provided the on deck batter is not purposefully impeding the coach's line of sight to the catcher.

 

Well be disappointed in me then... get on your side.

[scrounge]

I am mostly on the get on your side perspective, and virtually ALWAYS in a varsity game or anything played on a varsity quality field, but if the fences are that tight and it's customary, then I'll allow flipping. In my experience, that's almost entirely on non-school fields - which I don't really do much anymore. 

[beerguy55]

13 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Well be disappointed in me then... get on your side.

I'm sure you're heartbroken at my disappointment.  

[BT_Blue]

Why give one team a chance to easily take verbal pot shots at the on deck batter.

We have a few youth leagues that allow it. And it always gives me the hebe-gebes

[Jimurray]

On 1/2/2019 at 5:53 PM, beerguy55 said:

I would be interested in the FED position on whether or not the "in the hole" batter would be allowed to hit off a tee behind the dugout.   To me that's more a facility question than a real rule question - to your legal concern.  If the facility allows it as a batting warm-up area I hope FED would stay out of it from a rules perspective (for everyone but the on deck batter).  It is also, for me, a more practical way to let a batter get some practice swings in game - as a coach I would never want my on deck batter behind the dugout.

For the on deck batter - personally, I think it's more about ensuring the on deck batter is on the field and ready to go to the plate in the most expedient manner, so, if the on deck hitter wants to sit in the dugout and not warm-up that would be his choice - being behind the dugout and hitting off a tee would risk slowing the game down.

I am, however, disappointed that, with all their apparent focus on safety, that FED would not allow an on deck batter to take the on deck circle that is behind the batter, and, in spite of the explicit rule, I would be disappointed in any umpire that did not allow this, provided the on deck batter is not purposefully impeding the coach's line of sight to the catcher.

 

Doesn't NCAA require the on deck batter to be near the dugout? I don't think they mean either dugout.

[conbo61]

Still one of my all time favorites...

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Doesn't NCAA require the on deck batter to be near the dugout? I don't think they mean either dugout.

NCAA and the pros, I'm good.  They're typically further away (40+ feet), better at reacting, understand the risks, and can afford to fix their teeth.  (keep in mind, though, that most of these stadiums have netting to protect the fans that are a few feet behind the ODB).  The game's more competitive, more formal, and can use a little more rigidity in some scenarios.

FED rules (frankly, any amateur setting, since some follow OBR - and, yes, I know NCAA is "technically" amateur) - a range of ages and skills, and, a wide array of facility arrangements can result in an ODB being awfully tight to the batter - I've seen many fields where this is under 15 feet - like @scrounge mentions above, I'd like to see umps use some discretion in those scenarios.

I simply find the FED language a little contradictory to their typical leaning to safety.

At the rec and younger levels the ODB isn't trying to block the view of the coach, nor overhear any strategic conversations - they're just trying to stay safe (and still warm up a bit).   To blindly reject a batter going to the safer circle is a bit archaic and despotic.  No offense.   At least assess the situation - big field, 40 feet away, great, status quo...20 feet away, think about it for a second before ruling.    

I've actually seen umpires tell the kids (and/or inform the inexperienced coaches) to go to the safer circle.

I also think it's a better alternative to keeping the ODB on the bench, which I've seen as a go to argument ("well, if you don't like it, just stay on the bench").  Though, I believe OBR, at least, requires the ODB to be in the circle, not the bench.  There are many good reasons to have an ODB on the field.  There are few good reasons to keep them anchored to one circle.   I struggle with applying the pro mentality to amateur, rec, minor ball players, in lower end facilities - especially with a rule that has absolutely nothing to do with the play of the game itself.

 

 

[BT_Blue]

4 hours ago, conbo61 said:

Still one of my all time favorites...

I too thought it was hilarious as both an umpire and a fan. But the amount of crap I got from friends that know I umpire, including my best friend from high school, on this was pretty nuts.

[Mudisfun]

On 1/4/2019 at 5:33 PM, BT_Blue said:

I too thought it was hilarious as both an umpire and a fan. But the amount of crap I got from friends that know I umpire, including my best friend from high school, on this was pretty nuts.

Gerry spoke about this at one of our association meetings. His response was that the batter knew what he was doing, purposely ignored his command to move back in position, and basically left him no choice in the matter but to eject him. 

[catsbackr]

Why would a HS aged on-deck batter want a tee to warm up with?

[BT_Blue]

13 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Gerry spoke about this at one of our association meetings. His response was that the batter knew what he was doing, purposely ignored his command to move back in position, and basically left him no choice in the matter but to eject him. 

Oh... it was a good EJ for sure. 

[Rich Ives]

8 hours ago, catsbackr said:

Why would a HS aged on-deck batter want a tee to warm up with?

Hit into  net. Work on swing mechanics.

 

[catsbackr]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Hit into  net. Work on swing mechanics.

 

In the on deck circle?  Are you serious?  This HS baseball right?

 

@Rich Ives, you've got much different HS players than we do here.  Really, with a tee in the on-deck circle in HS?  Maybe someone could soft toss to him, too.

[Rich Ives]

4 hours ago, catsbackr said:

In the on deck circle?  Are you serious?  This HS baseball right?

 

@Rich Ives, you've got much different HS players than we do here.  Really, with a tee in the on-deck circle in HS?  Maybe someone could soft toss to him, too.

 

You said on deck batter, not "in the OD circle" and the subject was letting him/her warm up  behind the dugout, not in the on deck circle. And so I answered why.

 

[Biscuit]

On 1/27/2019 at 8:47 AM, catsbackr said:

Why would a HS aged on-deck batter want a tee to warm up with?

As a HS aged player, I can tell you I'd love to have a tee and net right outside the dugout that I could take some swings on during the game, though, probably not when I'm actually on deck. 

[beerguy55]

 

 

17 hours ago, catsbackr said:

In the on deck circle?  Are you serious?  This HS baseball right?

 

@Rich Ives, you've got much different HS players than we do here.  Really, with a tee in the on-deck circle in HS?  Maybe someone could soft toss to him, too.

Is your objection the notion of hitting off a tee while in the on deck circle?  That request was never made or suggested.

Is your objection the notion of a HS player getting some swings in off a tee?  I really hope not.