MC @ Home and possible FPSR @ 2nd?

[jpperez14]

Browsing thru youtube and found these, what do you think?

 

Edited January 16, 2016 by jpperez14

[maineump]

What level? In college I got nothing at second

HS rules the slide was a pop-up and through the bag - illegal

Plate at the plate - I have nothing - no intent it appears to be a late slide.

That stadium either looks like Portland Maine or Greenville SC (Red Sox Minor leagues). After further review. it is Jet Blue park in Florida

[UMP45]

IMHO I think you could have MC at the plate and FPSR violation at second. The reason being it looked like both were illegal slides.

[BT_Blue]

In college now, #1 is definitely an illegal slide. R3 would be out and runners sent back. However, I am not ejecting for the contact.

#2.. probably have FPSR in HS. Will have to think about it in college. I think now we have the option to get two on this in college for interference on an illegal slide. Not FPSR.

NCAA is now saying to slide feet first, the runner must have one leg and is butt on the ground.

[maineump]

In college now, #1 is definitely an illegal slide. R3 would be out and runners sent back. However, I am not ejecting for the contact.

#2.. probably have FPSR in HS. Will have to think about it in college. I think now we have the option to get two on this in college for interference on an illegal slide. Not FPSR.

NCAA is now saying to slide feet first, the runner must have one leg and is butt on the ground.

The play at second looks like he is down on the ground, I don't see the interference, as he went into and through the bag (NCAA), definitely 2 in HS.

Looking at the play at the plate, the catcher is blocking the plate before the arrival of the ball - it is a late slide, but I don't have MC.

Maybe I am missing something on these plays?

[jpperez14]

This is a Private High School Playoff game.

[maven]

FED rulings:

Play 1: FPSR, no MC. R3 out, BR out, other runners return (if less than 2 out).

Play 2: FPSR, R1 out, BR out, other runners return (if less than 2 out).

Both slides are illegal under FED.

[Richvee]

FED rulings:

Play 1: FPSR, no MC. R3 out, BR out, other runners return (if less than 2 out).

Play 2: FPSR, R1 out, BR out, other runners return (if less than 2 out).

Both slides are illegal under FED.

That wasn't a force play at the plate. I've got a catcher blocking the plate without the ball. OBS

[ricka56]

That wasn't a force play at the plate. I've got a catcher blocking the plate without the ball. OBS

Why wasn't it a force play ? There was R3 trying to score, a R2 pre-pitch and R1 standing on 2B after the play was over. That's definitely a FPSR violation.

[ElkOil]

For FED

#1. I've got OBS on the catcher.  He was blocking the plate the whole time.

#2. FPSR all day.

[Richvee]

Why wasn't it a force play ? There was R3 trying to score, a R2 pre-pitch and R1 standing on 2B after the play was over. That's definitely a FPSR violation.

Looks like you're right. I missed that R1 when a watched the first time. F2 still blocking the plate IMO. ...OBS...

[UMP45]

For FED

#1. I've got OBS on the catcher.  He was blocking the plate the whole time.

#2. FPSR all day.

Elk he can block the plate all day long without the ball. He just can't block it without the ball when the runner attempts to score.

 

[Jimurray]

Looks like you're right. I missed that R1 when a watched the first time. F2 still blocking the plate IMO. ...OBS...

Looked to me that the back of the plate was available to the runner. F2 was not blocking all of the plate so there would be no OBS.

[maven]

This F2's position does not constitute "blocking access to the plate" under the OBS rule (in any code). Not only does the runner have access to part of the plate, he has access to the entire plate!

Remember that we're not looking for a way to bail out a runner's bad choice. To rule OBS, make sure the infraction is totally obvious. If it's borderline, or we're not sure, or we didn't get a good look, or it might be a trainwreck... it's not OBS. No borderline infractions.

It's also worth noting that this umpire should be at 3BLX. Had he been there, he could have seen R3 deviate into F2 and been better positioned to rule on blocking the plate and responsibility for contact.

R3's "slide," on the other hand, is clearly illegal contact. Some have said it was "late," but that's misleading, as he did not reach the ground until after colliding with F2.

Now F2 is in front of the plate, so not all contact with him would be illegal. Had R3 slid legally into the plate and contact occurred (which is unlikely, as F2 was positioned in fair territory, but just suppose), that contact would be illegal.

And of course R3 is not required to slide, so the "late" slide or no slide is also not itself illegal. If he runs through the base without contacting F2, that would also be legal.

What R3 actually did here is perfectly described in this clause of the FPSR rule: "does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play." And that's illegal.

Edited January 17, 2016 by maven

[maineump]

It is a great learning tool that we have here, and the discussion can be eye opening.

I try to see/make the call, on these videos, on the first time through, and at the regular speed. We don't have the luxury of replay on the field.

Maven is correct - 3BLX would give this a great view. The view we get is misleading, as we are behind the plate. Bottom line to any of these is, 99% of the time if we are in the right place, we will see anything that may be illegal. This umpire was 1BLX and saw a collision - he made the call and stuck by it.

[Kevin_K]

I use 3BLX in many instances, but what advantage does it give in this situation? This is a force play, so a swipe tag is a low probability.

Considering that many of these plays may result in a throw to 1B, would it be better to remain at POP in order see the touch at HP and to eye the path of BR up the 1B line and the possibility of a pulled foot by F3/F1?

[maven]

I use 3BLX in many instances, but what advantage does it give in this situation? This is a force play, so a swipe tag is a low probability.

Considering that many of these plays may result in a throw to 1B, would it be better to remain at POP in order see the touch at HP and to eye the path of BR up the 1B line and the possibility of a pulled foot by F3/F1?

1. 3BLX allows us to see whether F2 is blocking access to the play, any deviation by R3 into F2 (which could suggest INT/MC) or around F2 (which might suggest OBS), and when F2 moves into the runner's path with the ball (also crucial for OBS). It's a better angle for everything except the collision play, which is now illegal at all levels.

2. A couple thoughts about this question. First, with just 2 umpires, we all know that we have to make compromises. PU's clear first priority — always, for many reasons — is getting the play at the plate right. Why would we want to compromise our mechanics for that crucial call for the chance that something might happen to the BR on the way to 1B? PU has minimal to no help with the play at the plate, and is secondary for calls on the BR (except RLI). Put it differently: if we must be out of position for a call, would it be better to be in proper position for the play at the plate or a play on the BR?

I am a strong supporter of good game awareness and being ready to help on plays on the BR. Don't get too far from the plate, and a read step back toward the plate will improve our angle on action near 1B.

[maven]

I try to see/make the call, on these videos, on the first time through, and at the regular speed. We don't have the luxury of replay on the field.

This is true, and it's worth remembering. It's the reason we don't want to use film to second guess our colleagues on the field. They had to make their call in real time based on how they processed the info they saw.

Film is valuable for us because it allows us to slow down the action and think about how to apply our rules and philosophy. We can break it down to understand the rules and their application better. And we can talk about mechanics and positioning, in order to maximize the chances that we'll get it right in real time.

Being able to pick apart someone else's ruling seldom makes anyone a better umpire. But when we work through film and talk about how each of us can improve, it's one valuable tool among others.

[Richvee]

I use 3BLX in many instances, but what advantage does it give in this situation? This is a force play, so a swipe tag is a low probability.

Considering that many of these plays may result in a throw to 1B, would it be better to remain at POP in order see the touch at HP and to eye the path of BR up the 1B line and the possibility of a pulled foot by F3/F1?

I had a bases loaded force play like this (without the contact) in a  evaluation game this summer. I took the play from point of plate, maybe 1/2 a step 1BLX for the reasons you gave. My evaluator told me he'd rather see me 3BLX. Why? Because you can see the catch/no catch and the transfer/drop. From 1BLX or POP you're looking into the back of F2 and if he tries for the BR and drops the ball in the process, you have no idea if he dropped it or lost it on the transfer. I mentioned the fact that I figured POP/1BLX gives me a good view of the BR and the running lane, and he said , correctly I believe,that the RLV in a secondary call here. Be in the best position you can for the play at the plate and the catch/transfer, then take a read step and a lean to your left to see the BR and the running lane and any subsequent play at 1st. 

[Richvee]

This F2's position does not constitute "blocking access to the plate" under the OBS rule (in any code). Not only does the runner have access to part of the plate, he has access to the entire plate!

Remember that we're not looking for a way to bail out a runner's bad choice. To rule OBS, make sure the infraction is totally obvious. If it's borderline, or we're not sure, or we didn't get a good look, or it might be a trainwreck... it's not OBS. No borderline infractions.

It's also worth noting that this umpire should be at 3BLX. Had he been there, he could have seen R3 deviate into F2 and been better positioned to rule on blocking the plate and responsibility for contact.

R3's "slide," on the other hand, is clearly illegal contact. Some have said it was "late," but that's misleading, as he did not reach the ground until after colliding with F2.

Now F2 is in front of the plate, so not all contact with him would be illegal. Had R3 slid legally into the plate and contact occurred (which is unlikely, as F2 was positioned in fair territory, but just suppose), that contact would be illegal.

And of course R3 is not required to slide, so the "late" slide or no slide is also not itself illegal. If he runs through the base without contacting F2, that would also be legal.

What R3 actually did here is perfectly described in this clause of the FPSR rule: "does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play." And that's illegal.

You've sold me.

[ElkOil]

You've sold me.

Me too.

And after analysis, I'd EJ R3 for MC.

Edited January 18, 2016 by ElkOil

[grayhawk]

For those saying the second video is FPSR in Fed, please explain the reason.

[BT_Blue]

I would venture to say it is because of the illegal slide. And that even if it would not fall under FPSR. The rules still allow us to get two because of the INT.

At least that is my 

[ricka56]

For those saying the second video is FPSR in Fed, please explain the reason.

Guess you're asking what was illegal about the slide. Hard to tell...maybe R1 was popping up when he made contact with F4...maybe he made contact on the backside on 2B (F4's right foot was behind the base when he took the throw from F6). But I can't see any conclusive evidence of an illegal slide from that video.

[grayhawk]

I would venture to say it is because of the illegal slide. And that even if it would not fall under FPSR. The rules still allow us to get two because of the INT.

At least that is my 

What made that slide illegal?