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Voluntary Release?

Thunderheads

By Thunderheads
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JaxRolo
JaxRolo

On a double play I was taught that if the ball drops straight down then he didn't have secure possession. But if the ball goes in any other direction then he must have had possession even for an insta

scrounge
scrounge

Rather easily, actually. How do we know the ball wasn't rolling out from the momentum of hitting the heel of the glove? He took his eye off of it, maybe it was on the release but maybe (probably?) not

Mike Prince
Mike Prince

I can see the arguments both ways here, but to me that ball came out awful quick which only adds to the uncertainty here, especially when the umpire is way further away than a zoomed-in replay on your

Mudder

Mudder

Posted
Posted

sloppy play gets you an ERROR hot dog!

 

Sorry guys, I gotta respectfully disagree, I got voluntary release all the way, even in real time.  I mean how can you look at the replay and not say he didn't have secure possession, then intentionally, voluntarily roll it out his glove into his throwing hand, then dropped?

scrounge

scrounge

Posted
Posted

 

sloppy play gets you an ERROR hot dog!

 

Sorry guys, I gotta respectfully disagree, I got voluntary release all the way, even in real time.  I mean how can you look at the replay and not say he didn't have secure possession, then intentionally, voluntarily roll it out his glove into his throwing hand, then dropped?

 

 

Rather easily, actually. How do we know the ball wasn't rolling out from the momentum of hitting the heel of the glove? He took his eye off of it, maybe it was on the release but maybe (probably?) not. Ok, your judgment is that it was on the release. I can accept that, but I cannot accept the idea that this is the obvious and clear call, even on replay. My judgment is drop.

  • Like 1
JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
Posted

 

 

sloppy play gets you an ERROR hot dog!

 

Sorry guys, I gotta respectfully disagree, I got voluntary release all the way, even in real time.  I mean how can you look at the replay and not say he didn't have secure possession, then intentionally, voluntarily roll it out his glove into his throwing hand, then dropped?

 

 

Rather easily, actually. How do we know the ball wasn't rolling out from the momentum of hitting the heel of the glove? He took his eye off of it, maybe it was on the release but maybe (probably?) not. Ok, your judgment is that it was on the release. I can accept that, but I cannot accept the idea that this is the obvious and clear call, even on replay. My judgment is drop.

 

Well said!

grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

 

 

sloppy play gets you an ERROR hot dog!

 

Sorry guys, I gotta respectfully disagree, I got voluntary release all the way, even in real time.  I mean how can you look at the replay and not say he didn't have secure possession, then intentionally, voluntarily roll it out his glove into his throwing hand, then dropped?

 

 

Rather easily, actually. How do we know the ball wasn't rolling out from the momentum of hitting the heel of the glove? He took his eye off of it, maybe it was on the release but maybe (probably?) not. Ok, your judgment is that it was on the release. I can accept that, but I cannot accept the idea that this is the obvious and clear call, even on replay. My judgment is drop.

 

 

I agree with Scrounge.  Mudder, did he get "secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly hold it?"  I really don't see any evidence of this in the replay.

James Walker

James Walker

Posted
Posted

No way its voluntary release. Ball starts moving before he goes to grab it. It's easy enough to see in the replay, but I've got no clue how the umpire saw it that far away. I think Nava knew he didn't have control, he picked the ball up quick and made a quick throw.

Thunderheads

Thunderheads

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

 

 

sloppy play gets you an ERROR hot dog!

 

Sorry guys, I gotta respectfully disagree, I got voluntary release all the way, even in real time.  I mean how can you look at the replay and not say he didn't have secure possession, then intentionally, voluntarily roll it out his glove into his throwing hand, then dropped?

 

 

Rather easily, actually. How do we know the ball wasn't rolling out from the momentum of hitting the heel of the glove? He took his eye off of it, maybe it was on the release but maybe (probably?) not. Ok, your judgment is that it was on the release. I can accept that, but I cannot accept the idea that this is the obvious and clear call, even on replay. My judgment is drop.

 

 

I agree with Scrounge.  Mudder, did he get "secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly hold it?"  I really don't see any evidence of this in the replay.

 

Steve, not directed at you, but just in general ....

 

I understand your statement here, but .....if what you say above is correct, then how do we get voluntary release on a double play?  If the above is true, then no double play would be "he's out, he's out, he's still out, ...on the exchange!" .....    does that make sense? ;)

grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

Steve, not directed at you, but just in general ....

I understand your statement here, but .....if what you say above is correct, then how do we get voluntary release on a double play? If the above is true, then no double play would be "he's out, he's out, he's still out, ...on the exchange!" ..... does that make sense? ;)

Jeff, remember there is no time requirement to demonstrate firm and secure possession, just "long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball." Did F9 prove that he had complete control in the OP? On a DP, the ball is normally securely in the glove, if even for an instant, before the transfer. If an infielder handles the ball like F9 in the video, then both runners would be safe if I am the umpire.

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

I understand your statement here, but .....if what you say above is correct, then how do we get voluntary release on a double play?  If the above is true, then no double play would be "he's out, he's out, he's still out, ...on the exchange!" .....    does that make sense? ;)

Voluntary release is a concept for a catch, not for gloving a thrown ball.

 

There was another drop ruled in a different game yesterday. I'll see if I can find it. Fielder had the ball in the webbing rather than the heel, and held it even longer than in this video.

JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
Posted

On a double play I was taught that if the ball drops straight down then he didn't have secure possession. But if the ball goes in any other direction then he must have had possession even for an instant which is the requirement for the out at second.

  • Like 2
Mike Prince

Mike Prince

Posted
Posted

I can see the arguments both ways here, but to me that ball came out awful quick which only adds to the uncertainty here, especially when the umpire is way further away than a zoomed-in replay on your HD TV at home.  F9 created this by making a somewhat non-routine catch (basket catch) even more non-routine by being too nonchalant.  Catch it like a big boy and there is no call other than the out to be made here.

 

And I say this as a lifelong Red Sox fan...

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noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

On a double play I was taught that if the ball drops straight down then he didn't have secure possession. But if the ball goes in any other direction then he must have had possession even for an instant which is the requirement for the out at second.

I think we've all heard that (if we've been umpiring for any length of time) but I'm not convinced the physics really bears that out and no I'm not a physicist.

Mike Prince

Mike Prince

Posted
Posted

 

I understand your statement here, but .....if what you say above is correct, then how do we get voluntary release on a double play?  If the above is true, then no double play would be "he's out, he's out, he's still out, ...on the exchange!" .....    does that make sense? ;)

Voluntary release is a concept for a catch, not for gloving a thrown ball.

 

There was another drop ruled in a different game yesterday. I'll see if I can find it. Fielder had the ball in the webbing rather than the heel, and held it even longer than in this video.

 

 

Maven - if the bolded statement is in fact true, how do you explain when you have a DP situation (like Jeff brings up), the F6 throws the ball to F4, and the ball comes out of his glove after he catches it?  For sake of this, let's assume the ball drops straight down out of F4's glove?  To me that is involuntary release of the ball (as I have been taught/trained), if it comes out sideways a conclusion can be made that he pulled the ball out of the glove, thereby satisfying the requirement for voluntary release.

 

Perhaps you are looking at a different rule book than me, but in OBR 2.00 the definition of a catch says (this is not the whole definition):

 

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of
a ball in flight and firmly holding it
 
In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control
of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. If the fielder has
made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch,
the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught

 

 

A catch can be a batted or thrown ball.

zm1283

zm1283

Posted
Posted

I may get raked over the coals here, but....

 

MLB Network showed a couple of angles and one of them showed Nava catch the ball in the webbing of his glove (Not on the heel, you could see the ball through the webbing.) and turn his glove over to transfer the ball and it fell out as he was reaching in to grab it.  If he is voluntarily turning his glove over to transfer the ball, I have a catch.  

 

With that said, in real time I bet most of us would have called the same thing.

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

Maven - if the bolded statement is in fact true, how do you explain when you have a DP situation (like Jeff brings up), the F6 throws the ball to F4, and the ball comes out of his glove after he catches it?  For sake of this, let's assume the ball drops straight down out of F4's glove?  To me that is involuntary release of the ball (as I have been taught/trained), if it comes out sideways a conclusion can be made that he pulled the ball out of the glove, thereby satisfying the requirement for voluntary release.

 

Perhaps you are looking at a different rule book than me, but in OBR 2.00 the definition of a catch says (this is not the whole definition):

*SNIP Rule 2.00* 

A catch can be a batted or thrown ball.

I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain. For a play on the bases, we often rule that a fielder has possession of the ball sufficient for an out but does NOT have voluntary release... and we rule it an out. That's because we're applying the concepts in TAG, not those in CATCH.

 

As for that distinction, we've been through it in another thread. Evans teaches that CATCH applies to batted balls, and if you read EVERY MLBUM comment on CATCH and every interp ever written (everything in JR, everything in BRD, etc. etc.), you'll see that they're all in the context of a batted ball.

 

In practice, pro umpires consistently apply one standard for batted balls (secure possession AND voluntary release) and another for thrown balls (secure possession throughout the tag). That's good enough for me. :)

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

 

 

http://wap.mlb.com/play?content_id=28286613

 

 

From the Phillies Game

 

Shocking, but I disagree with the announcers.  On this one, I have firm and secure possession and voluntary release.  Clumsy, but voluntary.

 

Yeah, that's a catch.

 

 

This is an excellent teaching video, IMO. Most people don't know the voluntary release concept, so they rule all sorts of things catches that aren't.

 

I think you could make the case either way concerning whether you have voluntary release here. DJ clearly didn't think so. Pro instruction is that benefit of the doubt goes AGAINST voluntary release, so he's probably right.

 

On a long hot night around here, that's probably voluntary release. ;)

Fittske24

Fittske24

Posted
Posted

Voluntary release is a concept for a catch, not for gloving a thrown ball.

 

Not true. When a thrown ball (ball in flight) is a part of a play that results in a TAG attempt, a fielder must demonstrate secure possession of that thrown ball before the TAG attempt is validated. If the ball falls to the ground during the momentum of that play, the release of the ball must be done so voluntarily.

Voluntary release is not the single determining factor of a CATCH. it is an individual element to help determine secure possession in the event of a dropped ball. If during the "momentum" of the play the fielder drops the ball, the ball must have been dropped as a result of voluntary release in order to be a CATCH.

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

 

Voluntary release is a concept for a catch, not for gloving a thrown ball.

 

Not true. When a thrown ball (ball in flight) is a part of a play that results in a TAG attempt, a fielder must demonstrate secure possession of that thrown ball before the TAG attempt is validated. If the ball falls to the ground during the momentum of that play, the release of the ball must be done so voluntarily.

Voluntary release is not the single determining factor of a CATCH. it is an individual element to help determine secure possession in the event of a dropped ball. If during the "momentum" of the play the fielder drops the ball, the ball must have been dropped as a result of voluntary release in order to be a CATCH.

 

 

Yeah, we've been through that before. We disagree, all case plays and comments are on my side, and I see no point in rehashing it.

Fittske24

Fittske24

Posted
Posted

Voluntary release is a concept for a catch, not for gloving a thrown ball.

Not true. When a thrown ball (ball in flight) is a part of a play that results in a TAG attempt, a fielder must demonstrate secure possession of that thrown ball before the TAG attempt is validated. If the ball falls to the ground during the momentum of that play, the release of the ball must be done so voluntarily.

Voluntary release is not the single determining factor of a CATCH. it is an individual element to help determine secure possession in the event of a dropped ball. If during the "momentum" of the play the fielder drops the ball, the ball must have been dropped as a result of voluntary release in order to be a CATCH.

 

Yeah, we've been through that before. We disagree, all case plays and comments are on my side, and I see no point in rehashing it.

Please post these comments and case plays that you are referencing......thanks.

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