Voluntary Release?

[maven]

 

 

 

Voluntary release is a concept for a catch, not for gloving a thrown ball.

Not true. When a thrown ball (ball in flight) is a part of a play that results in a TAG attempt, a fielder must demonstrate secure possession of that thrown ball before the TAG attempt is validated. If the ball falls to the ground during the momentum of that play, the release of the ball must be done so voluntarily.

Voluntary release is not the single determining factor of a CATCH. it is an individual element to help determine secure possession in the event of a dropped ball. If during the "momentum" of the play the fielder drops the ball, the ball must have been dropped as a result of voluntary release in order to be a CATCH.  

Yeah, we've been through that before. We disagree, all case plays and comments are on my side, and I see no point in rehashing it.

Please post these comments and case plays that you are referencing......thanks.

 

You can start with 2.00 CATCH Comment.

[basejester]

This is the lead-off batter?  So no runners?  There's no urgency for an exchange, other than disguising a fumble.  Is it wrong to consider this? 

[Fittske24]

You can start with 2.00 CATCH Comment.

Ok then......

Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.

If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is “held up†and kept from an appar- ent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.

This comment (or case play) refers to a portion of the definition of CATCH. It does not however, demonstrate the only definition.

Once again..... Definitions will set you free.....

CATCH: is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball IN FLIGHT and firmly holding it...

IN FLIGHT: describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

So yes.... Even thrown balls are subject to the definition of CATCH

[maven]

You're welcome to combine the definitions as you wish, and I will not try to correct you.

 

If you read it without assuming that you're right, everything in the COMMENT that you quoted pertains to catching a batted ball. That's true of every comment, case, and interp that I have ever seen.

 

And, as I've said, pro instruction is that voluntary release is a concept for a CATCH of a batted ball only. That's good enough for me.

 

I'm done repeating myself now.

[basejester]

CATCH: is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball IN FLIGHT and firmly holding it...

IN FLIGHT: describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

So yes.... Even thrown balls are subject to the definition of CATCH

 

It's possible to CATCH a thrown ball.   It's not necessary that the ball be CAUGHT for a TAG.  There's no reason to look at the definition of CATCH to determine if a TAG was made. 

[Fittske24]

It's possible to CATCH a thrown ball. It's not necessary that the ball be CAUGHT for a TAG. There's no reason to look at the definition of CATCH to determine if a TAG was made.

There is a reason if the throw is an element of the TAG play. If not, then why is the CATCH of the front end of a DP important? If the ball is not caught (secure possession in hand or glove) prior to the fed throw (ball IN FLIGHT) on the front end of a DP, then the TAG of second base can not happen. Now if the fielder does exhibit secure possession and the ball is dropped "on the transfer" then the TAG (out) stands. So what does "on the transfer" mean? It means that the fielder established secure possession of the thrown ball while attempting to TAG 2nd base, and subsequently drops the ball as he attempts to transfer the ball from glove to hand. In doing so the ball falls to the ground.......In the baseball world this is referred to as.......Voluntary Release.

[maven]

 

It's possible to CATCH a thrown ball. It's not necessary that the ball be CAUGHT for a TAG. There's no reason to look at the definition of CATCH to determine if a TAG was made.

There is a reason if the throw is an element of the TAG play. If not, then why is the CATCH of the front end of a DP important? If the ball is not caught (secure possession in hand or glove) prior to the fed throw (ball IN FLIGHT) on the front end of a DP, then the TAG of second base can not happen. Now if the fielder does exhibit secure possession and the ball is dropped "on the transfer" then the TAG (out) stands. So what does "on the transfer" mean? It means that the fielder established secure possession of the thrown ball while attempting to TAG 2nd base, and subsequently drops the ball as he attempts to transfer the ball from glove to hand. In doing so the ball falls to the ground.......In the baseball world this is referred to as.......Voluntary Release.

 

The rulings in 2 MLB games this past weekend (I think they're both in this thread) contradict your post. Both videos show outfielders who dropped the ball "on the transfer," and they both made the "on the transfer" mechanic to signal to the umpire that's what happened.

 

That did not, in the umpire's judgment, constitute voluntary release, and both cases were ruled "no catch."

 

Had the ball fallen in just the same way in a play on the bases, the umpire (IMO) would have ruled a tag, an out, and the drop occurred "on the transfer."

[basejester]

 

There is a reason if the throw is an element of the TAG play. If not, then why is the CATCH of the front end of a DP important?

A CATCH is not important at the front end of the DP. Secure possession is.

All CATCHES include secure possession. Not all secure possessions are CATCHES.

[Fittske24]

It's possible to CATCH a thrown ball. It's not necessary that the ball be CAUGHT for a TAG. There's no reason to look at the definition of CATCH to determine if a TAG was made.

There is a reason if the throw is an element of the TAG play. If not, then why is the CATCH of the front end of a DP important? If the ball is not caught (secure possession in hand or glove) prior to the fed throw (ball IN FLIGHT) on the front end of a DP, then the TAG of second base can not happen. Now if the fielder does exhibit secure possession and the ball is dropped "on the transfer" then the TAG (out) stands. So what does "on the transfer" mean? It means that the fielder established secure possession of the thrown ball while attempting to TAG 2nd base, and subsequently drops the ball as he attempts to transfer the ball from glove to hand. In doing so the ball falls to the ground.......In the baseball world this is referred to as.......Voluntary Release.

 

The rulings in 2 MLB games this past weekend (I think they're both in this thread) contradict your post. Both videos show outfielders who dropped the ball "on the transfer," and they both made the "on the transfer" mechanic to signal to the umpire that's what happened.

 

That did not, in the umpire's judgment, constitute voluntary release, and both cases were ruled "no catch."

 

Had the ball fallen in just the same way in a play on the bases, the umpire (IMO) would have ruled a tag, an out, and the drop occurred "on the transfer."

Those rulings don't contradict my post...... If anything you just contradicted yourself. How can one be a no catch in the out field and then be a out and on the transfer in the infield???? Those calls reflect the calling umpires judgement not knowledge of the rules. You are assuming that the umpires got the calls correct. Unless MLB uses these plays as future case plays then we will never know if the calls actually were correct or incorrect. It will be up to us arm chair umpires to watch replay after replay and still guess wrong. At this point I give up.......you win........but If we are ever on the same field and a "on the transfer" or " voluntary release" argument breaks out......let me do all the talking :)

[noumpere]

I will just point out that FED includes thrown balls in its definition of catch.  And that some (JR maybe) try to use the term "gloved" for a thrown ball.  I personally have never really seen the need for the distinction.

[basejester]

 

If anything you just contradicted yourself. How can one be a no catch in the out field and then be a out and on the transfer in the infield????

Because the standard for a CATCH and a TAG are different standards. That's the whole of the debate.

Those plays in the outfield look like secure possession but not CATHCHES because they lack voluntary release.  

[IABlue]

It was clearly voluntary release.

 

This is pretty much the very definition of it.

 

If you don't think that is a catch then there are dozens and dozens and dozens of outs that you are leaving on the field throughout the course of your season.

[basejester]

 

It was clearly voluntary release.

 

This is pretty much the very definition of it.

What would your border-line look like?

If you don't think that is a catch then there are dozens and dozens and dozens of outs that you are leaving on the field throughout the course of your season.

I don't think that this sort of drop is that common. We have a handful of examples from an entire MLB season.  And I don't think amateurs are more casual than pros on those exchanges.