Force Play Slide Rule-Fed

[VolUmp]

Yes, Johnny, agreed ... but my question on this play is slliding through (past) the base when the pivot man is on the base vs. sliding through the plate when the catcher is on the plate.

 

In a double play situation, a runner cannot slide through 2B ... even if he slides right at it.

I don't think that applies to the plate.

[grayhawk]

Yes, Johnny, agreed ... but my question on this play is slliding through (past) the base when the pivot man is on the base vs. sliding through the plate when the catcher is on the plate.

In a double play situation, a runner cannot slide through 2B ... even if he slides right at it.

I don't think that applies to the plate.

This is not correct. A runner may not slide past the base AND THEN make contact or alter the play. With a fielder on top of the base, he is not protected except for MC.

[johnnyg08]

What if it occurred on a 1-2-3 double play?  

 

I think the same rule applies.  I'm searching the rule book right now for support.  Good discussion.

[johnnyg08]

ART. 2 . . . A slide is illegal if:

a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or

b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or

c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or

d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or

e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or

f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

[Jocko]

Here's a thought. 1B, 2B, and 3B all have contact area ABOVE the horizon line. You are intended to stop when you contact them. is flat. IMO you are expected to slide ACROSS the plate, not INTO it. Also, if yo DID judge MC, the run would still count. Once R3 touches the plate, he instantly becomes a retired runner. Anything that happens must be with this consideration.

[Jocko]

Going strictly by the exact wording in the book, you cannot occupy home plate. Therefore, couldn't we determine that is not a base?

[Richvee]

8.4.2 SITUATION W:

The bases are loaded with (a), less than two outs, or (b), two outs. B4 hits a ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 for the force out at home. The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps toward the first-base side. R1, seeing F2 ready to make a play on B4 at first base, touches home plate and maliciously crashes into F2.

RULING: (a) Since this is a force-play situation, R1 and B4 are declared out and no one scores. R1 will be ejected from the game. In (b), R1 will be declared out and ejected for the contact, and no run will score.

[Jocko]

8.4.2 SITUATION W:The bases are loaded with (a), less than two outs, or (b), two outs. B4 hits a ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 for the force out at home. The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps toward the first-base side. R1, seeing F2 ready to make a play on B4 at first base, touches home plate and maliciously crashes into F2.RULING: (a) Since this is a force-play situation, R1 and B4 are declared out and no one scores. R1 will be ejected from the game. In (b), R1 will be declared out and ejected for the contact, and no run will score.

Nice. I stand corrected. OK, take it a little differently. There's no force at the plate. Does that change the ruling?

[VolUmp]

Very Helpful ... all of you guys.

 

JOCKO:

I agree the plate is not a base for another reason ... any base hit by a batted ball is automatically fair.  Not so with the plate.

 

JOCKO: 

I'd say YES, if there is no force at the plate and there is MC after the plate is touched, the run still counts.  Call the BR out on R1's INT.  EJ R1.

 

(By the way ... it is SINFUL that FED still uses a bad numbering system for baserunners.)

 

GRAYHAWK: 

Agreed ... I was not interpreting the rule correctly regarding a slide through 2B.  The words "and then" clarify it.

 

JOHNNY:

Great question about the 1-2-3 DP.  Until that example, I would have steadfastly said you can always slide across the plate and make contact if not malicious.

Not so sure now, but I'd have a terribly hard time calling INT or an illegal slide on that play ... UNLESS ... the slide was started obviously late with the intent to take out the catcher.

 

 

And further by the way ... no one seems to agree that the DC had a legit beef with his catcher being cartwheeled while standing on the plate.

[Jocko]

As far as F2 there without the ball, I'd lean more toward OBS since there was no play and therefore no FPSR.

[VolUmp]

As far as F2 there without the ball, I'd lean more toward OBS since there was no play and therefore no FPSR.

 

Agreed, and excellent point.  I think the DC was looking for MC ... it certainly was not a question of a force play.

I just thought his argument couldn't have been more flawed ...

Effectively he said, "There was no play ... he should have been watching the ball instead of putting his head down and running ... and sliding ... but my catcher has a right to camp out on the plate ..."

[johnnyg08]

As far as F2 there without the ball, I'd lean more toward OBS since there was no play and therefore no FPSR.

Agreed, and excellent point. I think the DC was looking for MC ... it certainly was not a question of a force play.

I just thought his argument couldn't have been more flawed ...

Effectively he said, "There was no play ... he should have been watching the ball instead of putting his head down and running ... and sliding ... but my catcher has a right to camp out on the plate ..."

F2's alleged obstruction doesn't mean we get to crash the catcher though. (I know that's not your OP) That's where we're expected to call obstruction, MC, eject and award the base.

Based on how you're describing the play, I don't think you have an illegal slide. Look at ©. It reads: "the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with OR alters the play of the fielder" It does not say "AND" so an umpire can judge that contact beyond the base is exclusively illegal. As you describe, F2 is standing on the base, while he still needs to slide TO the base, he can't slide through the base.  There can be legal contact "at" the base, just not through the base that would be judged to alter the play.

If F2 is standing on the base and the slide is legal, I don't think you have anything. The same would apply on the bases. Sliding through the base, then making contact, could have the slide be illegal.

ART. 2 . . . A slide is illegal if:

a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or

b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or

c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or

d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or

e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or

f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

2.32.2 SITUATION C:

On a force play slide at the plate, the runner slides over (beyond the plate) and makes contact with F2. Is the runner guilty of violating the force play slide rule?

RULING: Yes. A runner is expected to stop short of the back edge of home plate, the same as he would at other bases. Had the runner not made contact or altered the play, there would have been no violation. 2-32-2c(f)

I hope I didn't ramble too much, but I think based on what you describe, you have a whole lot of nothing. If there's no play, F2 needs to be off of the plate. (not illegal, just poor technique) It is simply poor technique for a catcher no matter the level.

[UMP45]

Just remember that the FPSR is at any base including home plate.

[bam]

Noumpere said

"And, there's nothing wrong with a good hard baseball slide as long as its on the ground and infront of or over the bag."

What rule set?

All of them.

 

Fed limits it to that.  NCAA allows contact directly behind the base (in the base line extended) and a pop-up slide on the base.  OBR allows almost anything. lol.

That was my point.  In FED if you slide through the bag and make contact with a fielder directly behind it, you are guilty of violating FPSR.  In OBR the fielder is NOT protected directly behind the bag, or anything within an arms length. 

[noumpere]

Yes, Johnny, agreed ... but my question on this play is slliding through (past) the base when the pivot man is on the base vs. sliding through the plate when the catcher is on the plate.

 

In a double play situation, a runner cannot slide through 2B ... even if he slides right at it.

I don't think that applies to the plate.

Your wrong.  The same rules are in effect at all bases.  And, in your play, you didn't have a FPSR anyway.

[grayhawk]

 

As far as F2 there without the ball, I'd lean more toward OBS since there was no play and therefore no FPSR.

Agreed, and excellent point. I think the DC was looking for MC ... it certainly was not a question of a force play.

I just thought his argument couldn't have been more flawed ...

Effectively he said, "There was no play ... he should have been watching the ball instead of putting his head down and running ... and sliding ... but my catcher has a right to camp out on the plate ..."

F2's alleged obstruction doesn't mean we get to crash the catcher though. (I know that's not your OP) That's where we're expected to call obstruction, MC, eject and award the base.

Based on how you're describing the play, I don't think you have an illegal slide. Look at ©. It reads: "the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with OR alters the play of the fielder" It does not say "AND" so an umpire can judge that contact beyond the base is exclusively illegal. As you describe, F2 is standing on the base, while he still needs to slide TO the base, he can't slide through the base.  There can be legal contact "at" the base, just not through the base that would be judged to alter the play.

If F2 is standing on the base and the slide is legal, I don't think you have anything. The same would apply on the bases. Sliding through the base, then making contact, could have the slide be illegal.

ART. 2 . . . A slide is illegal if:

a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or

b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or

c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or

d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or

e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or

f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

2.32.2 SITUATION C:

On a force play slide at the plate, the runner slides over (beyond the plate) and makes contact with F2. Is the runner guilty of violating the force play slide rule?

RULING: Yes. A runner is expected to stop short of the back edge of home plate, the same as he would at other bases. Had the runner not made contact or altered the play, there would have been no violation. 2-32-2c(f)

I hope I didn't ramble too much, but I think based on what you describe, you have a whole lot of nothing. If there's no play, F2 needs to be off of the plate. (not illegal, just poor technique) It is simply poor technique for a catcher no matter the level.

 

 

Johnny, I'm not certain if you are saying this or not, so I apologize if I misinterpreted. If F2 is on standing on the plate and the runner slides into him and slides through the plate, it's nothing (unless judged to be MC). The runner is expected to stop short of the back edge of the plate on a force play if F2 is standing behind the plate (where he is protected). Key words from the rule being "and then" makes contact with, or alters the play. In other words, sliding through the base must happen BEFORE the contact or alteration. If F2 is ON the plate, then the contact or alteration happens before he slides beyond the base.

[Replacematt]

 

Based on how you're describing the play, I don't think you have an illegal slide. Look at ©. It reads: "the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with OR alters the play of the fielder" It does not say "AND" so an umpire can judge that contact beyond the base is exclusively illegal. As you describe, F2 is standing on the base, while he still needs to slide TO the base, he can't slide through the base.  There can be legal contact "at" the base, just not through the base that would be judged to alter the play.

If F2 is standing on the base and the slide is legal, I don't think you have anything. The same would apply on the bases. Sliding through the base, then making contact, could have the slide be illegal.

It seems that you are saying that contact beyond the bag can be legal (bolding mine.) Contact beyond the base on FPSR is always illegal. The reason for the word "or" is because there can be alteration of the play without contact.

[johnnyg08]

I thought I read something about if there is contact that doesn't impact the play, then it wouldn't be illegal...maybe I need to go back and look at that again.  You might be right...I'll double check.

[johnnyg08]

Based on how you're describing the play, I don't think you have an illegal slide. Look at ©. It reads: "the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with OR alters the play of the fielder" It does not say "AND" so an umpire can judge that contact beyond the base is exclusively illegal. As you describe, F2 is standing on the base, while he still needs to slide TO the base, he can't slide through the base.  There can be legal contact "at" the base, just not through the base that would be judged to alter the play.

If F2 is standing on the base and the slide is legal, I don't think you have anything. The same would apply on the bases. Sliding through the base, then making contact, could have the slide be illegal.

It seems that you are saying that contact beyond the bag can be legal (bolding mine.) Contact beyond the base on FPSR is always illegal. The reason for the word "or" is because there can be alteration of the play without contact.

 

 

You are correct.  Contact beyond the base is an illegal slide in FED.  

[JaxRolo]

I thought I read something about if there is contact that doesn't impact the play, then it wouldn't be illegal...maybe I need to go back and look at that again. You might be right...I'll double check.

How would you know that it won't impact the play? It's interference therefore immediate dead ball. Get 2 outs. Or am I missing something?

[johnnyg08]

I thought I read something about if there is contact that doesn't impact the play, then it wouldn't be illegal...maybe I need to go back and look at that again. You might be right...I'll double check.

How would you know that it won't impact the play? It's interference therefore immediate dead ball. Get 2 outs.

Or am I missing something?

 

 

No I poorly wrote the point I was attempting to make.  You're not missing anything.

[alex7]

If a kid slides past the plate and contacts the catcher when no play is being attempted at home, and it's not MC, and I call that runner out...

 

I would be considered a pretty bad "by-the-book" umpire lacking common sense.  Just sayin'.

[johnnyg08]

If a kid slides past the plate and contacts the catcher when no play is being attempted at home, and it's not MC, and I call that runner out...

 

I would be considered a pretty bad "by-the-book" umpire lacking common sense.  Just sayin'.

 

I'd have a tough time under some hypotheticals getting an out on that too.

[noumpere]

If a kid slides past the plate and contacts the catcher when no play is being attempted at home, and it's not MC, and I call that runner out...

 

I would be considered a pretty bad "by-the-book" umpire lacking common sense.  Just sayin'.

It wouldnt even be "by the book" because the runner has already scored so hes not going to be out.

[JaxRolo]

If a kid slides past the plate and contacts the catcher when no play is being attempted at home, and it's not MC, and I call that runner out...

 

I would be considered a pretty bad "by-the-book" umpire lacking common sense.  Just sayin'.

It wouldnt even be "by the book" because the runner has already scored so hes not going to be out.

Correct. Never call an Out if he already scored!