Zen and the Art of the Strike Zone or...does F2's reception matter?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Let's assume for the moment, you are NOT on TrackMan...

F2 sets up for a pitch down and in on the hitter and the pitch is up and away and...clips the edge of the zone. F2 snares it but falls over awkwardly...are you grabbing that strike?

Same situation again except this time...F2 snares it cleanly with a huge reach across and maintains his feet without falling over...are you grabbing that strike?

Zen discussion here, brothers...we're free, we're open...there are no wrong answers, there is only the individual's answer and the basis of their judgement.

~Dawg

[Thatsnotyou]

I’ll answer this at the level I work, HS varsity.
 

First one? No way. Because though I may be technically correct (with no data to prove it), to everyone else but me it appears to be a ball. Perhaps a really obvious ball. And the fastest way to sink your game is to have a gross miss - specifically, calling an obvious ball a strike. In HS, sometimes perception is reality.  
 

The second one? Would have to really see it to know. Catcher would really have to reach and still stick it. Sometimes something like that can be grabbed, but if it’s the absolute corner, high and outside, and the catcher was way in, probably not. If he’s going to miss out there, it better have enough of the plate that I’m pretty confident it’s there…and not look like an obvious ball to everyone else. Easier to get that one if it’s thigh high, so the only thing you’re worried about is width. 

[noumpere]

I tried very hard not to let the catcher influence my strike zone, but I'm smart enough to know that he did.

[SH0102]

Let me ask, if the catcher sets up 6-8” outside and the pitch hits him square in the chest and he sticks it beautifully, do you call it a strike bc of how good he made it look?

If your answer is no (which it should be) then you can’t intentionally ball a pitch that’s a strike bc of how he caught it.

That said, if you get fooled by the pitch bc of how bad it’s butchered, that’s human and natural, esp your example where he dives and falls down. Yeah, no.

But if you know it’s a strike; why are you passing on it bc pitcher missed his spot but still got it over plate?

[Coach Carl]

16 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Let me ask, if the catcher sets up 6-8” outside and the pitch hits him square in the chest and he sticks it beautifully, do you call it a strike bc of how good he made it look?

I don't think this is analagous to the strike that looks like a ball.  When catcher's reach, it (almost) always looks like a ball.   But no catcher is trying to make a strike look like a ball. 

However, catcher's try to make balls look like strikes.   Teams and fans expect close pitches to be called balls even if the catcher does a good job of making it look like a strike.  The further out the catcher sets up the more likely they can tell it's not a strike, even though the catcher caught it like one.

[SH0102]

12 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

don't think this is analagous to the strike that looks like a ball

You’re entitled to your opinion of course.  At every level below major college and pro we are taught to call strikes, so saying we shouldn’t call a strike bc catcher reached is silly to me.

And then in major college and pros you need to be right, so again, balling a strike is against your goal.

Catcher influence absolutely is a thing and I am not implying it doesn’t matter. But if you know it’s a strike and you’d be correct in calling it, I don’t know how or why we would discuss consciously choosing to ball it.

Edit: ^ again, not saying influence doesn’t matter. If catcher is diving, or they take the 12-6 into the dirt, I’m aware of the game mgmt aspect of not calling that a strike even if it technically is.

But just a reach? Pffft

[Velho]

I wish I had F2s close enough to the plate to care about how they receive the ball. Those of us that do 12U on down, 90%+ of the time, F2 is 5-8 feet+ off PoP.* If you're looking for secondary information, you need an abacus to calculate the angles formed by a RH/LH pitcher to a RH/LH catcher on a batter anywhere between 4' and 6' tall.

* It does get better in 12U and 11U All Stars but still in the 10%-25% range

 

If this is hijack, I'll make a new thread but I think it's a logical extension of @SeeingEyeDog OP:

When does the way F2 receives the ball influence your ball/strike call?

[AtlUmp]

Unless it's two high end varsity teams in region or playoffs where the pictures can actually hit their spot more than 4/10 times, I do my best to ignore how the catcher receives the ball.

If I balled every reached catch or dropped strike my games would go from under 2:30 to over 3 hours.

[SeeingEyeDog]

57 minutes ago, Velho said:

If this is hijack, I'll make a new thread but I think it's a logical extension of @SeeingEyeDog OP:

When does the way F2 receives the ball influence your ball/strike call?

Yes, absolutely a logical extension...let's keep it all here...

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

Add me to the "it happens" crowd, but I am not willingly letting it happen.  I don't give two squats what the catcher does with it, and I was a catcher.  Maybe that's why.  

To @Velho's point, this drives me crazy.  Had a varsity game a couple of weeks ago where a coach was grumbling about the "inconsistent strike zone."  On one of his trips by, I stopped him and asked him if he had noticed the difference between his catcher and the other team's catcher.  Of course he said he didn't.  I then pointed out that the other team's catcher was tight on the plate and grabbing pitches as they left the zone.  His catcher was sitting four feet back, giving the ball another 3+feet of travel once it left the zone.  My calls were as consistent as I could be, but what he was seeing of the pitches was not.

That said, those games drive me nuts because it is so hard to get calibrated with such a drastic difference in catcher setups.

 

[dumbdumb]

all i know is when i go watch you guys, i usually hear from each coach at least 5 times say, hey ump its not where he catches it.

once you get that ABS system for professional umpires of amateur players and have unlimited helmet taps, this issue goes away. it will be a mute point. just hoping amateur players get it before the pros get it, to show them up on how long it is taking them to implement their system. now, for that yellow line on check swings (believe CCS showed the yellow line once) and use that for IR.

[grayhawk]

I don't intentionally ball a pitch because of the way it's received, but I do get fooled from time to time by the way it's received.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, dumbdumb said:

 it will be a mute point.

I look forward to the silence.

[grayhawk]

48 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I look forward to the silence.

Let's touch basis on this later.

[SeeingEyeDog]

I'm sure the funding for replay systems in amateur baseball should be ready to go by the end of the week, if not sooner...

~Dawg

[Richvee]

Had it happening today. One great catcher catching breaking pitches at the knee/ hollow of the knee, outside corner, right behind the plate, body still, glove up, the other catcher shifting his body and pancaking every breaking ball behind the opposite batters box. Yeah, the bad catcher’s pitcher wasn’t hitting the spots quite as consistently, but let’s just say, if the good catcher was catching the opposing pitcher, there more than likely would have been a few more strike calls. 

[johnnyg08]

On 4/29/2025 at 9:28 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Let's assume for the moment, you are NOT on TrackMan...

F2 sets up for a pitch down and in on the hitter and the pitch is up and away and...clips the edge of the zone. F2 snares it but falls over awkwardly...are you grabbing that strike?

Same situation again except this time...F2 snares it cleanly with a huge reach across and maintains his feet without falling over...are you grabbing that strike?

Zen discussion here, brothers...we're free, we're open...there are no wrong answers, there is only the individual's answer and the basis of their judgement.

~Dawg

The law of self preservation for the little game fee I am earning. 

 

Scenario 1: Ball 100/100 times. 

Scenario 2: Coin Flip, but I'd like to think I'd try to grab more strikes than balls on this one

[BigBlue4u]

On 4/30/2025 at 11:33 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

When does the way F2 receives the ball influence your ball/strike call?

When he jerks an outside pitch into the strike zone.  If it's not good enough for him, why should be good enough for me?

[834k3r]

On 4/30/2025 at 10:34 AM, Velho said:

I wish I had F2s close enough to the plate to care about how they receive the ball. Those of us that do 12U on down, 90%+ of the time, F2 is 5-8 feet+ off PoP.* If you're looking for secondary information, you need an abacus to calculate the angles formed by a RH/LH pitcher to a RH/LH catcher on a batter anywhere between 4' and 6' tall.

* It does get better in 12U and 11U All Stars but still in the 10%-25% range

 

If this is hijack, I'll make a new thread but I think it's a logical extension of @SeeingEyeDog OP:

When does the way F2 receives the ball influence your ball/strike call?

Not just you, brother. Last week I had a varsity catcher who was probably 4 feet back from PoP. To the OP, I had to call strikes regardless of where the catcher caught them. It did, however, mean I caught some flack from the uber-accurate umpires on the other side of the backstop.

[834k3r]

On 4/30/2025 at 3:47 PM, dumbdumb said:

all i know is when i go watch you guys, i usually hear from each coach at least 5 times say, hey ump its not where he catches it.

once you get that ABS system for professional umpires of amateur players and have unlimited helmet taps, this issue goes away. it will be a mute moot point. just hoping amateur players get it before the pros get it, to show them up on how long it is taking them to implement their system. now, for that yellow line on check swings (believe CCS showed the yellow line once) and use that for IR.

FIFY.

[The Man in Blue]

On 4/30/2025 at 7:10 PM, noumpere said:

I look forward to the silence.

I thought the point was moo.

[johnnyg08]

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I thought the point was moo.

Lots of your posts are full of something that comes out of a bull, but not from the end that moos.

[BLWizzRanger]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

Lots of your posts are full of something that comes out of a bull, but not from the end that moos.

You are taking the piss out of him...

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/2/2025 at 10:58 AM, BLWizzRanger said:

You are taking the piss out of him...

Quit milking this …