Batter Throws Bat Off Of Backstop EJ

[CanuckJoeWest]

Last weekend, I had the privilege of officiating 13U Travel / Competitive regional playoffs. As background, one of the teams was unhappy with the zone, as I like to keep it nice and tight because these kids are good, and they were irritated they weren't getting a lot of strike calls on pitches just missing.

 

I was consistent however one team (coaches, parents, players (especially the catcher)) where chirping called balls, although it quieted down after the 1st inning. No one came out of the dugout to argue, just loud groans and shouts to open the zone up and constant questioning on where the pitch missed/ catcher holding pitches too long.

Later, catcher comes to bat. Swings through the first pitch and fouls off the next to make it 0-2. Next pitch is a thigh-high fastball I call strike three. I keep my eye on the catcher and batter groans and walks away from the plate. About two seconds later, I hear a clank and turn around to realize the hitter threw hit bat off the backstop near his dugout in frustration. I didn't say anything, as I didn't feel like adding fuel to the fire on a borderline issue as I knew it would make the parents 10x worse (especially as a guy still in his teens who doesn't get the benefit of authority that adult umpires get). Plus, I didn't want to be a red-ass.

 

My question is, should this have been an EJ/ should I have taken any other action? I'm certain it's not the first and won't be the last time the player has done it.

[CanuckJoeWest]

I also have a policy of say what you want, as long as it's not at me, my partner, or the other team. I'm PU for 12U travel playoffs, kid strikes out on a middle-middle pitch, he knows it, for the third out. Says "SH*#" just loudly enough for me, his coaches and dugout and a few fans behind backstop to hear while walking back as I go up the line between innings. I ignore it, and I plan to do so in the future.

 

Thoughts on that?

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

Last weekend, I had the privilege of officiating 13U Travel / Competitive regional playoffs. As background, one of the teams was unhappy with the zone, as I like to keep it nice and tight because these kids are good, and they were irritated they weren't getting a lot of strike calls on pitches just missing.

 

I was consistent however one team (coaches, parents, players (especially the catcher)) where chirping called balls, although it quieted down after the 1st inning. No one came out of the dugout to argue, just loud groans and shouts to open the zone up and constant questioning on where the pitch missed/ catcher holding pitches too long.

Later, catcher comes to bat. Swings through the first pitch and fouls off the next to make it 0-2. Next pitch is a thigh-high fastball I call strike three. I keep my eye on the catcher and batter groans and walks away from the plate. About two seconds later, I hear a clank and turn around to realize the hitter threw hit bat off the backstop near his dugout in frustration. I didn't say anything, as I didn't feel like adding fuel to the fire on a borderline issue as I knew it would make the parents 10x worse (especially as a guy still in his teens who doesn't get the benefit of authority that adult umpires get). Plus, I didn't want to be a red-ass.

 

My question is, should this have been an EJ/ should I have taken any other action? I'm certain it's not the first and won't be the last time the player has done it.

If you didn't see him throw a bat then I wouldn't do or say anything.  

[CanuckJoeWest]

57 minutes ago, umpstu said:

If you didn't see him throw a bat then I wouldn't do or say anything.  That's what I thought. Also decided not worth it because it was the 7th inning and the team was about to be eliminated.

[maven]

8 hours ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

As background, one of the teams was unhappy with the zone, as I like to keep it nice and tight because these kids are good, and they were irritated they weren't getting a lot of strike calls on pitches just missing.

You seem to be pretty content with this policy, but I would encourage you to reconsider it. Calling more strikes yields better baseball at ALL amateur levels. I recommend reserving a "tight" zone for pro ball.

Baseball is a game of defense: it's the only game where the defense controls the ball. Everything about the game is better when the total number of runs in a game is less than 10. The pace of play is better, the quality of pitching is better (the starter goes longer and is more likely to get the feel of his secondary pitch when he throws it more), and coaches are happier. In my experience, we get more coaches griping in defense of their pitchers than their hitters: pitching is hard.

I don't advocate anything crazy, but umpires have a lot more leeway than we think to call the "egg shaped zone," rather than the box described in the rule. Get those batters swinging, and your games will go faster and smoother, 99% of the time (there's no pleasing everyone).

As for your EJ question: player misbehavior needs to be addressed. If you didn't see it and are not comfortable ejecting based on an inference, it still needs to be addressed. Speak to the coach and give a team warning.

[CanuckJoeWest]

3 hours ago, maven said:

You seem to be pretty content with this policy, but I would encourage you to reconsider it. Calling more strikes yields better baseball at ALL amateur levels. I recommend reserving a "tight" zone for pro ball.

Baseball is a game of defense: it's the only game where the defense controls the ball. Everything about the game is better when the total number of runs in a game is less than 10. The pace of play is better, the quality of pitching is better (the starter goes longer and is more likely to get the feel of his secondary pitch when he throws it more), and coaches are happier. In my experience, we get more coaches griping in defense of their pitchers than their hitters: pitching is hard.

I don't advocate anything crazy, but umpires have a lot more leeway than we think to call the "egg shaped zone," rather than the box described in the rule. Get those batters swinging, and your games will go faster and smoother, 99% of the time (there's no pleasing everyone).

As for your EJ question: player misbehavior needs to be addressed. If you didn't see it and are not comfortable ejecting based on an inference, it still needs to be addressed. Speak to the coach and give a team warning.

I hear you. I call a big zone in those HL\Select games. I find we can get the 7 innings in under the time limit a good 60% of the time in travel ball. I haven't quite figured out how to be consistent with the bigger zone, because there's nothing to go off of (If I'm calling a pitch off the plate a strike, how do I make sure I don't call one too far off a strike.) I find it easier to expand the zone on height as needed (Move the top from the midpoint up to the top of the letters or give a couple inches below the knees).

 

In retrospect, Your suggestion probably makes sense. I had the team a couple weeks prior. Opposing pitcher had an unfortunate last name that sounded like slang for female body parts. Team was making fun of it in the dugout during T1, so I warned them to knock it off. Luckily, 3rd base coach was all over them abt it after the end of the inning. Helps when coach is on your side

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

 (If I'm calling a pitch off the plate a strike, how do I make sure I don't call one too far off a strike.)

 

Use the batter's box lines.  If those aren't there, make an unobtrusive mark / line with your foot as you brush off the plate before each inning.

On the OPs:  Eject the batter.  Talk to the coach about the swearing.

[CanuckJoeWest]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Use the batter's box lines.  If those aren't there, make an unobtrusive mark / line with your foot as you brush off the plate before each inning.

On the OPs:  Eject the batter.  Talk to the coach about the swearing.

I decided to use discretion on the last one because he was a good kid and his team was up 17-0 in the 3rd and everyone just wanted the 18th to score to mercy it and move on. m

 

The 10U and 11U travel leagues help us out by giving us a big orange 21-inch plate to put right over the one in the ground. Originally I wasn't a fan because of how much it moved, but I've grown to love it.

[Velho]

9 minutes ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

The 10U and 11U travel leagues help us out by giving us a big orange 21-inch plate to put right over the one in the ground. Originally I wasn't a fan because of how much it moved, but I've grown to love it.

Interesting. Hadn't heard that one. I see how it can be useful.

[Velho]

4 hours ago, maven said:

I don't advocate anything crazy, but umpires have a lot more leeway than we think to call the "egg shaped zone," rather than the box described in the rule. Get those batters swinging, and your games will go faster and smoother, 99% of the time (there's no pleasing everyone).

Thank you for speaking to this. It so rarely is addressed.

Umpires below HS are the largest group of umpires and the least experienced. New(er) umpires struggle with what the zone should be - especially after seeing all the backlash on LLWS ball/strike calls - and people rarely will talk to them about the zone beyond the rule book, even when they plead for direction.

[Mudisfun]

43 minutes ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

I haven't quite figured out how to be consistent with the bigger zone, because there's nothing to go off of (If I'm calling a pitch off the plate a strike, how do I make sure I don't call one too far off a strike.) I find it easier to expand the zone on height as needed (Move the top from the midpoint up to the top of the letters or give a couple inches below the knees).

As mentioned use the lines, but when those are not available, use the catcher. If he is set up directly behind the plate, any ball caught from outside edge of knee to knee is a strike. For 13 and up, normally this gets you a larger zone with anything outside his body a ball. If the catcher moves in or out, then prior to the pitch, see where is is holding the glove. Inside is easier to deal with since the ball is coming right at you. For outside, most the time F2 will set his glove on the outside edge, or even a little outside of the plate; know where he starts. If that glove moves any further out to catch the ball from the starting point, then it is not a strike, depending on how far you looking to expand the zone today.

Also, the level of pitching will help you. Have players who barely can hit water falling out of a boat? Expand the zone. Get batters swinging. No one wants to see a walk fest, no pitcher wants to throw 1-2 innings and hit their max count. I've had HS "Varsity" games that had a looser zone than a 11U LL game due to the level of pitching available. Know what? The kids swung, they hit the ball, people cheered, players played and the game moved. Have worked with partners on those same games who called a tight zone, no one played, everyone walked and 3+ hours later we called the game due to darkness. That partner was blocked immediately when I got in the car.

Adjust to the level of play. If both teams are griping about the zone being too tight, then listen to them and open it up a little. They most likely have not had someone all season calling a super tight zone and they are not looking for that.

[834k3r]

13 hours ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

I also have a policy of say what you want, as long as it's not at me, my partner, or the other team. I'm PU for 12U travel playoffs, kid strikes out on a middle-middle pitch, he knows it, for the third out. Says "SH*#" just loudly enough for me, his coaches and dugout and a few fans behind backstop to hear while walking back as I go up the line between innings. I ignore it, and I plan to do so in the future.

 

Thoughts on that?

That's my rule of thumb too. I watch the language a bit more at LL just because of the age of kids.

[CanuckJoeWest]

49 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

As mentioned use the lines, but when those are not available, use the catcher. If he is set up directly behind the plate, any ball caught from outside edge of knee to knee is a strike. For 13 and up, normally this gets you a larger zone with anything outside his body a ball. If the catcher moves in or out, then prior to the pitch, see where is is holding the glove. Inside is easier to deal with since the ball is coming right at you. For outside, most the time F2 will set his glove on the outside edge, or even a little outside of the plate; know where he starts. If that glove moves any further out to catch the ball from the starting point, then it is not a strike, depending on how far you looking to expand the zone today.

Also, the level of pitching will help you. Have players who barely can hit water falling out of a boat? Expand the zone. Get batters swinging. No one wants to see a walk fest, no pitcher wants to throw 1-2 innings and hit their max count. I've had HS "Varsity" games that had a looser zone than a 11U LL game due to the level of pitching available. Know what? The kids swung, they hit the ball, people cheered, players played and the game moved. Have worked with partners on those same games who called a tight zone, no one played, everyone walked and 3+ hours later we called the game due to darkness. That partner was blocked immediately when I got in the car.

Adjust to the level of play. If both teams are griping about the zone being too tight, then listen to them and open it up a little. They most likely have not had someone all season calling a super tight zone and they are not looking for that.

I've had probably 30 different teams this season and only 1 has had an issue with the zone *shrug*. Number one pet peeve is having catchers set up way in or out, they catch the ball and it's not even FRAMED as a strike  because of where they're set up, but because they catch it in the middle of the chest it looks great and I look like I'm way too stringent.

[CanuckJoeWest]

Just now, CanuckJoeWest said:

I've had probably 30 different teams this season and only 1 has had an issue with the zone *shrug*. Number one pet peeve is having catchers set up way in or out, they catch the ball and it's not even FRAMED as a strike  because of where they're set up, but because they catch it in the middle of the chest it looks great and I look like I'm way too stringent.

But I've been trying to work more using the catcher, to be certain that I know where the ball was.

Quote

 

 

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

I like to keep it nice and tight because these kids are good,

I'll add to what others have said for one other point.   By encouraging kids at the younger levels to walk (and make no mistake, with umpires like yourself, unethical and short-sighted coaches will encourage their kids to keep their bat on their shoulder until they get two strikes) you are helping to suppress the development of hitters.   And then, by extension, you suppress the development of fielding (the game becomes walk, steal, overthrow at that point).

Force kids to swing the bats more, not less.  It's better for everyone, both short term and long term.

[CanuckJoeWest]

11 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'll add to what others have said for one other point.   By encouraging kids at the younger levels to walk (and make no mistake, with umpires like yourself, unethical and short-sighted coaches will encourage their kids to keep their bat on their shoulder until they get two strikes) you are helping to suppress the development of hitters.   And then, by extension, you suppress the development of fielding (the game becomes walk, steal, overthrow at that point).

Force kids to swing the bats more, not less.  It's better for everyone, both short term and long term.

Not directed directly at you, but I feel like the point of this post has gotten lost. 3 kids between both teams walked the whole game and only a few K'd- the offence was putting the ball in play and the defence was making outs. It wasn't really an issue. I'm asking for game management ideas when a kid has a hissy fit after striking out.

[Catch18]

Not directed directly at you, but I feel like the point of this post has gotten lost. 3 kids between both teams walked the whole game and only a few K'd- the offence was putting the ball in play and the defence was making outs. It wasn't really an issue. I'm asking for game management ideas when a kid has a hissy fit after striking out.

The younger they are, make sure the coach is aware if warnings are needed. The more adults that are in your corner can likely motivate the youngster that “the adults are mad, I shouldn’t do that.” As they get older (Babe Ruth-ish to HS age), if it’s unsportsmanlike that’s warrants EJ, then involve the coaches less and less. Just do it. My take is as they get older, more self-awareness should be learned. If he doesn’t, that’s ok, you provided a learning opportunity.

11-12 and he says, “SH*#,” after striking out….who was it at? Himself? You? We’re def addressing it with dad/coach. But EJ might depend on who he’s “$h!tting.”

[beerguy55]

23 hours ago, CanuckJoeWest said:

It wasn't really an issue. I'm asking for game management ideas when a kid has a hissy fit after striking out.

I'm telling you it IS an issue.   Consider it free advice above and beyond what you asked for.  

Keep in mind, you brought up the tight strike zone, for reasons known only to yourself...that information was irrelevant to your question.  In all likelihood the kid threw his bat because he was angry he struck out, not because he disagreed with your call - batters don't argue about tight strike zones.

Edit - it doesn't matter why he threw the bat, only that he did.  Don't cloud the issue with information that doesn't matter to the decision making process.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 8.1, p. 145):

The following general principles should be considered when deciding to eject a player, coach, manager, or other person from the game…

8. Any player, coach or manager throwing equipment in protest of an umpire’s call will be reported on an incident report. The umpire will notify the offender that he is being reported for an equipment violation. Umpires are encouraged to utilize equipment violation as an intermediary step to warn and discipline a player while attempting to keep the player in the game. However, if the throwing of equipment is flagrant, the umpire shall eject the person from the game.

From the 2016 BRD (section 99—Batter:  Throws Bat or Helmet Deliberately, p. 85):

NCAA:  Point not covered. Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  A player may be immediately ejected for intentionally throwing his bat or helmet because of his displeasure at an umpire’s call or because of his disgust with himself.

2021-2022 NCAA rule 3-6d Note 1: The umpire first may warn any violator or team before ejecting the individual(s) from the game.

OBR:  Point not covered. Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  Generally if a batter or runner throws equipment immediately after a decision being called against him before the third out of an inning, or a fielder throws his glove anytime during an inning, it should be perceived as in disgust of the umpire’s decision. If a player violently throws his equipment in disgust of an umpire’s decision, he should be ejected immediately…

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I'll add to what others have said for one other point.   By encouraging kids at the younger levels to walk (and make no mistake, with umpires like yourself, unethical and short-sighted coaches will encourage their kids to keep their bat on their shoulder until they get two strikes) you are helping to suppress the development of hitters.   And then, by extension, you suppress the development of fielding (the game becomes walk, steal, overthrow at that point).

Force kids to swing the bats more, not less.  It's better for everyone, both short term and long term.

Quoted a while ago at an Evans clinic I attended: "Your mother taught you how to expletive walk, you're here to expletive learn how to hit." Spring training coach to a spring training minor leaguer who was expressing displeasure at the spring training umps strike zone.

[The Man in Blue]

To the point the OP is requesting ...

I can understand how you feel not having seen it puts you in a difficult position.  Knowing it happened, in my book, is good enough.  If you aren't comfortable since you didn't see it, I would suggest calling the coach over and asking him if he wants to take care of it or if he wants you to take care of it.  Either way, make it clear that player is not coming back on the field.  If the coach does not support that decision, he can join the player on the bench.

There is NO world where deliberately throwing your bat against the backstop should be allowed to slide.  I don't care if he is mad at you, himself, his English teacher, or his mother for giving birth to him.  This time it's the backstop, the next time it's the pitcher ... or you.

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I can understand how you feel not having seen it puts you in a difficult position.  Knowing it happened, in my book, is good enough.  If you aren't comfortable since you didn't see it, I would suggest calling the coach over and asking him if he wants to take care of it or if he wants you to take care of it. 

I don't mind this approach, but it still means you have to be really sure he deliberately threw the bat at the fence.   Rather than, for example, tossing it to the ODB who missed it....or genuinely losing his grip on it.

And, if you're sure he committed the infraction, and sure he needs to leave, you don't really need the coach to take care of it.   Getting the coach to take care of something that you know everyone saw or heard, and everyone knows a line was crossed make sense.  I also like allowing a coach to handle things when an ejection leads to mandatory suspensions and fines (where that may  not fit the crime, and getting the kid out of that game is enough), or annoying paperwork.   This one may not be so clear cut.  

The risk is either the coach didn't see it either...OR...he saw exactly what happened and doesn't think (or knows) it was anywhere as egregious as you do...and in many case, maybe it wasn't.   "Take care of what, Blue?"   Now you're having an argument of whether or not the kid threw the bat vs why throwing a bat is an ejection.   And if the coach saw everything...and knows, because he did, that you didn't, you're not in a good place.

As a coach, I'd be receptive if the ump said something like "I didn't see it, but it sure sounded like he threw his bat in frustration at the fence...only because I didn't see everything I'm not ejecting anyone, so I'm asking you to talk to him, and make sure your players mind their P's and Q's from now on."  At that point I have only one appropriate response "Thank you".  What I say or don't say to my players, and if I remove anyone or not, is up to me, but I also know that every player on my team is now on a short leash.    This gives me the opportunity to yank my player if I know what he did...or, tell the player "Fine, it was an accident...the next accident will get you ejected, so, it's up to you what you want to do about it - hit the ball next time."

[ArchAngel72]

13U  had it been me and LL I probably would have spoken to the coach and told him he now sits the rest of the game due to it.. or I can eject him. His choice..

 

[HokieUmp]

This has been an interesting discussion, and maybe I missed it in the conversation, but ....

Did you have a partner?  If so, what was his feedback and/or why on Earth didn't *he* EJ the kid?

[CanuckJoeWest]

2 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

This has been an interesting discussion, and maybe I missed it in the conversation, but ....

Did you have a partner?  If so, what was his feedback and/or why on Earth didn't *he* EJ the kid?

I mentioned to it after the game (He was in D/ P4) and dugout was on first base side. He said he didn’t see it.