Strict Coach's Box

[LMSANS]

Tthere are runners on, BU is in B or C. 1BC moves out of the coach's box to align himself with the pitcher to get a better look at a move to first.

My umpire friend will call time and move the coach back to at least one foot in the box. I don't see a problem with the coach's position.

I told him I would ask the experts on U-E.

My default is NFHS, but would be interested in hearing ant and all levels and opinions.

[flyingron]

The OBR says the coach must remain in the box except to signal a slide/advance/return (and then they must avoid interfering with the action).   The penalty is to warn the coach and if he repeats, eject.   Despite how we draw the boxes on the ground, the penalty applies to being closer to the foul line or home plate.

NFHS says you can have a player or coach in the box.   The only penalty listed is for physically assisting a runner during a play (player is out).   If a coach/player is not in the box then he's not the base coach and if he's not otherwise permitted on the field, it can deemed unsportsmanlike conduct.    Issue a warning unless it is major in which case eject immediately.  No description on box boundaries.

NCAA allows the coaches out to signal slide/advance/return as  long as they do not interfere with the play.   Penalty is warning/ejection.

 

[LRZ]

5.03(c): "Base coaches must remain within the coach’s box consistent with this Rule, except that a coach who has a play at his base may leave the coach’s box to signal the player to slide, advance or return to a base if the coach does not interfere with the play in any manner."

5.03(c) Penalty: "If a coach has positioned himself closer to home plate than the coach’s box or closer to fair territory than the coach’s box before a batted ball passes the coach, the umpire shall, upon complaint by the opposing manager, strictly enforce the rule. The umpire shall warn the coach and instruct him to return to the box. If the coach does not return to the box he shall be removed from the game."

Echoing the rule, the 2014 PBUC Umpire Manual states that "until a batted ball passes the coach,the coach is not permitted to positioned himself closer to home plate than the coach’s box nor closer to fair territory than the coach's box. Otherwise a coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manage complains, in which case the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule...."

In the OP, the coach's position is only a potential problem, but one that should (must?) be raised by the opposing team, not by the umpire on his/her own initiative.

 

 

[flyingron]

In OBR yes, but in the FED (the OP situation) or NCAA, it doesn't need to be the result of a complaint.

[LRZ]

I should have made it clear that I was addressing only the OBR rule set: "In the OP, under OBR, the coach's position is only a potential problem...."

[JonnyCat]

18 minutes ago, LRZ said:

In the OP, the coach's position is only a potential problem, but one that should (must?) be raised by the opposing team, not by the umpire on his/her own initiative.

This. We were taught at school that if the opposing team brings something like this up, then enforce it equally for both teams.

With that being said, most of the games in my area, HS and down, are lucky to have a properly laid out field. If the coach is doing his job and not being an A$$hat about positioning, let it go. If he's in the vicinity of the box, that's not something that concerns me. In a 2 man system, the coaches positioning is almost never an issue. What is he going to get in the way of, or how could he interfere? There are ways, of course, but I have tools in the tool box to deal with that.

Not the end of the stick anyone should pick up unless necessary. Doesn't sound necessary in your described situation.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, LMSANS said:

My umpire friend will call time and move the coach back

 

Your umpire friend is being a plumber -- he's just looking for s***

[JonnyCat]

3 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Your umpire friend is being a plumber -- he's just looking for s***

What's the 2 things you need to know as a plumber?

$hit runs downhill, and payday's on Friday!

(Apologies for the old contractor joke, I couldn't help myself!)

[maven]

I treat this the same as the requirement that all fielders except F2 be in fair. Ignore until the other side complains, then enforce equally both ways.

The rule justification is the one that requires team personnel to do as the umpire instructs on pain of being warned and then ejected.

[Senor Azul]

2008 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 19: The umpire-in-chief notices that the head coach coaching at third base is not in the coach's box. The coach is not gaining an advantage or causing any problems. RULING: There is no violation. If the umpire believes that the coach was gaining an advantage for his team, he would require the coach to be within the confines of the coach's box. (3-2-1)

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 3.3.1 Situation L:  The umpire-in-chief requests that the third-base coach remain within the confines of the coaches’ box. However, the coach argues that he can be outside the box since he is outside the line farthest from home plate. RULING:  After a warning, the coach may be restricted to the dugout, or if warranted, ejected for failure to comply with an order from an umpire.

[Senor Azul]

2021-2022 NCAA rule 3

Base Coach

SECTION 3. A base coach is an eligible team member, head coach or assistant coach who occupies the coach’s box at first or third base to direct the batter or runner.

b. At the time of the pitch, the base coach may not be closer to the foul line than the inside edge of the coaches’ box and no closer to home plate than the front edge of the box (see also Rule 2-6, Base Coach). A coach may leave the coach’s box to signal the player to slide or advance or return to a base as long as the individual does not interfere with the play.

PENALTY for b., c. and d.—Ejection from game after a warning.

[Vegas_Ump]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

What's the 2 things you need to know as a plumber?

$hit runs downhill, and payday's on Friday!

(Apologies for the old contractor joke, I couldn't help myself!)

If you play poker in Las Vegas, it is only the case if you are a plumber that a Flush beats  Full House!  🙂

Mike

[ousafe]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

What's the 2 things you need to know as a plumber?

$hit runs downhill, and payday's on Friday!

(Apologies for the old contractor joke, I couldn't help myself!)

...don't chew your fingernails...

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:52 PM, JonnyCat said:

With that being said, most of the games in my area, HS and down, are lucky to have a properly laid out field. If the coach is doing his job and not being an A$$hat about positioning, let it go. If he's in the vicinity of the box, that's not something that concerns me. In a 2 man system, the coaches positioning is almost never an issue. What is he going to get in the way of, or how could he interfere? There are ways, of course, but I have tools in the tool box to deal with that.

If the coach is just straying a bit and wandering, or even coming up the line a little to be heard over a noisy crowd or a windy day, that's nothing worth noticing.  However, what I have seen that, IMO, justifies pro-active umpiring:

• Coaches who crowd up on the base "to instruct their runner" (really they are trying to camouflage the runner)
• Coaches who continually move towards and away from the base in "fast motions" (i.e., hopping, not just strolling around, again to camouflage the runner or distract the pitcher)
• Coaches who try to run down the third base line during the pitch "to show the runner where to go"

I would say the coach in the OP "trying to line up with the pitcher" is a bunk story given by the coach.  As any half-way decent umpire knows, standing in line with the play is going to screen you, not give you a better look.  All he was doing was trying to insert himself into the pitcher's view to add distraction.

I typically see it with "amateur" coaches (read: summer/travel ball self-declared coaches), but I have noticed the problem getting worse as more and more of those coaches get hired by schools who desperately need coaches.

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:58 PM, JonnyCat said:

What's the 2 things you need to know as a plumber?

$hit runs downhill, and payday's on Friday!

(Apologies for the old contractor joke, I couldn't help myself!)

Avoid finger foods for lunch.