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R3, R2

2 Out

 

Ground ball to SS

R3 scores before R 2 is tagged out.

3 Out

SS then notices that the B/R tripped and has not yet reached 1B so they throw him out.

Is this considered an advantageous 4th out in OBR and/or FED?

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You’re not wrong. The defense cannot happen or bumble or blunder into the 4th Out by chance. The throw to 1B and the catch/touch of the base by F3 has to have a purpose behind it, expressed to an

In 2001 even OBR allowed this out. Thankfully now the Wendelstedt school does not. As the late Carl Childress said: "I hope it never happens in one of my games. Or yours!"

You’re absolutely right, Mr. The Man in Blue. Like you I disagree with the concept. So from now on I’m going to ignore all the evidence to the contrary and just go with what U-E guys say. That means I

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13 minutes ago, MT73 said:

R3, R2

2 Out

 

Ground ball to SS

R3 scores before R 2 is tagged out.

3 Out

SS then notices that the B/R tripped and has not yet reached 1B so they throw him out.

Is this considered an advantageous 4th out in OBR and/or FED?

I don't believe so. The "advantageous 4th out" is by appeal only. I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong.

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5 minutes ago, LMSANS said:

if I'm wrong.

You’re not wrong.

The defense cannot happen or bumble or blunder into the 4th Out by chance. The throw to 1B and the catch/touch of the base by F3 has to have a purpose behind it, expressed to an/the umpire, in order for it be registered as a “4th Out”, thereby negating the run. 

 

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54 minutes ago, MT73 said:

R3, R2

2 Out

 

Ground ball to SS

R3 scores before R 2 is tagged out.

3 Out

SS then notices that the B/R tripped and has not yet reached 1B so they throw him out.

Is this considered an advantageous 4th out in OBR and/or FED?

We segued into that scenario in this thread: Time? - Ask the Umpire - Umpire-Empire

My current opinion is you cannot put the tripped batter out for a fourth advantageous out in OBR. You can in FED and NCAA.

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5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

My current opinion is you cannot put the tripped batter out for a fourth advantageous out in OBR. You can in FED and NCAA.

I think this is right.

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Once the third out is achieved there is no reason or requirement for the B-R to keep running. The inning is over. To now say he can be put out for not doing something he didn't have to do is nonsense.

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47 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Once the third out is achieved there is no reason or requirement for the B-R to keep running. The inning is over. To now say he can be put out for not doing something he didn't have to do is nonsense.

In 2001 even OBR allowed this out. Thankfully now the Wendelstedt school does not. As the late Carl Childress said: "I hope it never happens in one of my games. Or yours!"

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2 minutes ago, LRZ said:

 Is it based on an assumption of situational awareness by fielders?

Considering what a professional baseball player did last week at first base with two out, is this even a question? :) 

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Well, Mr. LRZ, you must not have followed the link provided by Mr. Jimurray to the very recent thread where I posted this—

All of the following can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15)

Play 2-3:  R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation 4-3…

Wendelstedt:  Play 2-3 does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one.

Here’s the official interpretation for FED:

Hopkins:  If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out.

In addition, the 2019-2020 College Baseball Rules Study Guide by George Demetriou states the following…

“Also, if the defense gains a third out during play and the batter-runner has not reached first at the time of the out, a fourth out appeal can negate all runs scored on the play.”

Play 4-89 With runners on second and third and two out, B1 singles to right, but pulls his groin and cannot advance. R3 scores, but R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. Ruling:  A fourth out appeal on B1 will cancel the run.

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No, I admit I did not follow the link, Senor Azul--because I knew you would soon come along with the answers! ;)

What is the reference to "OBR official interpretation 4-3"?

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Yogi_Berra_quote.png

 

Again, I disagree that FED and/or NCAA allow the fourth out to come on a force out/"BR not making it to first base" out.

2-20-2

ART. 2 . . . A half-inning is the interval during which one team is on offense (batting) and the other is on defense (fielding). A half-inning ends when there is a third out or when, in the last inning, the winning run is scored. In either case, if there is a delayed out declared by the umpire for a baserunning infraction, a possible fourth out may be recognized (9-1-1d, e).

9-1-1d,e

d. when a third out is declared during a play resulting from a valid defensive appeal, which results in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score); or

e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2. Credit the putout to the nearest designated baseman.

8-2-6i

i. Fourth-Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly and the resulting appeal is an apparent fourth out.

So ... NO ... NFHS does NOT allow a fourth out outside of a valid defensive appeal.

How about NCAA?  They only mention a fourth out in two places: 8-6-7 and 8-6-9.  8-6-9, in and of itself, does NOT pertain to the fourth out (this rule is about the third out on appeal) but it has a note that references the fourth out. 

8-6-7

7) If there are two or more appeals during a play, which could make a total of “four outs” in an inning, the defensive team may choose to take any out it desires.

8-6-9

9) If there are two outs before the appeal on a runner, the appeal becoming the third out, no runners following the appealed out shall score, and if the appeal is a force out, no runners preceding or following the appealed out shall score (see Rule 2 – Force Play). Note: If the defense will make more than one appeal, the defense must appeal in the correct order unless it is an advantageous “fourth out” appeal.

So, NO, it does not appear NCAA permits a fourth out on a force out either.

As @Rich Ives said above, a batter runner has no obligation to keep running after the third out is called.  To claim that his/her failure to keep running to first is "missing a base" or other dereliction of base running duties which could become an appeal play is absolutely absurd.

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You’re absolutely right, Mr. The Man in Blue. Like you I disagree with the concept. So from now on I’m going to ignore all the evidence to the contrary and just go with what U-E guys say. That means I will have to disbelieve the actual announcement the NCAA made in 2014 concerning this interpretation--

NCAA Baseball Playing Rules Interpretations

March, 2014

13. 8-5j, A.R. 1—in the situation where the third out is recorded at any base other than first base, no run may score if the fourth out is due to the batter-runner not reaching first base before he has been put out. 

Example: Two outs, bases loaded, base hit, R3 scores, R2 is thrown out at the plate. B/R has not touched first base due to a leg injury. F2 throws to F3 and the B/R is tagged out.

This is a special situation that would fall under the “fourth-out” appeal process and would allow the defense to take any of the last two outs they would choose for the third out. This interpretation is supported by a response from Jim Evans as to how it is interpreted at the professional level.

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Guest NJ Coach

Is this ruling different from a scenario where a fielder may not know if he got a 3rd out so he continues the play to get  a 4th out just in case ?

Say R3 and R2, two outs.  Suicide squeeze bunt on the 3b side of the mound and the pitcher throws to F5 after R3 crosses the plate, who applies a tag on sliding R2.  Unsure if R2 will be called out, F3 throws to first before BR reaches.  But R2 is called out (3rd out).  Does the 4th out nullify the run ?

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5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

You’re absolutely right, Mr. The Man in Blue. Like you I disagree with the concept. So from now on I’m going to ignore all the evidence to the contrary and just go with what U-E guys say. That means I will have to disbelieve the actual announcement the NCAA made in 2014 concerning this interpretation--

NCAA Baseball Playing Rules Interpretations

March, 2014

13. 8-5j, A.R. 1—in the situation where the third out is recorded at any base other than first base, no run may score if the fourth out is due to the batter-runner not reaching first base before he has been put out. 

Example: Two outs, bases loaded, base hit, R3 scores, R2 is thrown out at the plate. B/R has not touched first base due to a leg injury. F2 throws to F3 and the B/R is tagged out.

This is a special situation that would fall under the “fourth-out” appeal process and would allow the defense to take any of the last two outs they would choose for the third out. This interpretation is supported by a response from Jim Evans as to how it is interpreted at the professional level.

 

I appreciate that!  Wait ... that was sarcasm!  😉

I didn't ask you to go with what I say.  I asked people to follow the rulebook which does NOT support that absurd interpretation.

Why do we bother to have a rulebook?

 

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NJ Coach, there have been at least two occasions in the recent past where a major league game had a continuing play net four outs. Gil Imber of Close Call Sports wrote a very good analysis of what he has dubbed false fourth outs. It is titled False Fourth Out - Ball Stays Alive After Third Out and is dated July 25, 2018. Here is part of his conclusion--

“Since the defense leaving the field, the ball being taken out of play, etc. is what usually happens after the third out, it's not too far of a leap to lump in "third out" and "dead ball" together, but, as Rule 5.09(c)'s fourth out illustrates, the ball remains live in the immediate aftermath of the third out. It becomes dead as the result of an action that could potentially occur simultaneously with the third out being recorded, but the act that causes the ball to become dead is not the third out itself.”

Here’s the link--

https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/07/false-fourth-out-ball-stays-alive-after.html

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53 minutes ago, MT73 said:

 

‘Are they correct?

 

Depends on whether you choose to believe Wendelstat, or the previous MLB interp (where it was from), or the 2014 NCAA interp (did they change it after Wendelstat's newer interp?) or ...

 

Either way, it's a CF and you can come up with plays that are "unfair" to either side.

Maybe you can treat it *similar* to a game winning run scoring on an award -- where the BR (and in FED all runners) must advance or be subject to being called out (the specifics vary) and having the game continue.

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33 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Ok gents.

Here is something that may add to the confusion.

Check out what this says about non appeal 4th out.

‘Are they correct?

 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Fourth_out

They might have been correct in 2011 because my 2011 BRD has Fitzpatrick agreeing with FED and NCAA that you can put the tripped BR out for a fourth advantageous out. The cite is actually from 2001. 

So with instant replay I can concoct a 3WP for NCAA and OBR although considering some recent events in MLB this might not be third world. 2 out, R1 and R3. BR hits a dribbler to F6 who after charging and and turning to 1B sees no chance to get the BR and fakes the throw which dekes R1 off his bag to try for further advance. F6 throws to get R1 and the tag attempt is safed. They then see that the BR blew a hammy and is laying 2 feet before 1B so they throw there and he is called out. No run scores. But the offensive manager, let's say Maddon in OBR and @beerguy55in NCAA challenges the safe on his R1. Can you challenge your own safe? If reversed in OBR and they are using the Wendelstedt interp there would be no out on the BR. If reversed in NCAA I think the defense can still choose the advantageous out.

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Guest NJ Coach

Azul....I read the article you shared but it's confusing to me.  Can you confirm/clarify that in my scenario where R3 scores before F5 tags out sliding R2 for the third out, the run is nullified because F5's just in case throw to first base beats the BR there (the 4th out) ?

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

But the offensive manager, let's say Maddon in OBR and @beerguy55in NCAA challenges the safe on his R1. Can you challenge your own safe? If reversed in OBR and they are using the Wendelstedt interp there would be no out on the BR. If reversed in NCAA I think the defense can still choose the advantageous out.

I'm glad you brought this up.  I do think the OBR interpretation potentially introduces some gamesmanship scenarios.  eg...R3 gets huge jump, crosses plate by the time F6 fields ground ball...R2, seeing F6 is going to throw out B/R, abandons and gets called out before the play on first (or pulls a killdeer and baits F6 to tagging him)

 

And, yes, you can challenge your own safe...https://baseballrulesacademy.com/toronto-manager-trades-out-for-run-then-as-protest-game/

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Mr. MT73, if you scroll to the bottom of the document you cited you will find the following--This page was last edited on 3 May 2011, at 19:41.

So the document you linked to is not current. I think that fact makes your statement true—“Here is something that may add to the confusion.”

The Wendelstedt interpretation was in his 2013 manual and is also listed as the current one in the 2016 BRD.

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On 6/9/2021 at 3:26 PM, Senor Azul said:

Well, Mr. LRZ, you must not have followed the link provided by Mr. Jimurray to the very recent thread where I posted this—

All of the following can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15)

Play 2-3:  R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation 4-3…

Wendelstedt:  Play 2-3 does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one.

Here’s the official interpretation for FED:

Hopkins:  If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out.

In addition, the 2019-2020 College Baseball Rules Study Guide by George Demetriou states the following…

“Also, if the defense gains a third out during play and the batter-runner has not reached first at the time of the out, a fourth out appeal can negate all runs scored on the play.”

Play 4-89 With runners on second and third and two out, B1 singles to right, but pulls his groin and cannot advance. R3 scores, but R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. Ruling:  A fourth out appeal on B1 will cancel the run.

I have since done some research and a 4th out can only be on an appeal of a missed base or leaving too early.

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22 minutes ago, MT73 said:

I have since done some research and a 4th out can only be on an appeal of a missed base or leaving too early.

That’s what most of us think but if you had taken an NCAA preseason test a few years ago you would have gotten one question wrong regarding a fourth out on a batter who fell down before 1B. Did your research include NCAA cites. 

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51 minutes ago, MT73 said:

I have since done some research and a 4th out can only be on an appeal of a missed base or leaving too early.

If you have found something not previously mentioned that led you to this conclusion, please provide a cite or link. What has been referenced previously is apparently inconclusive.

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