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I see this in Junior/Senior league play, where coaches incessantly make pitching changes around the 25 pitch count, so the kid can pitch the next day.

Is there a point where this becomes the proverbial "travesty of the game"?

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9 minutes ago, philaump said:

I see this in Junior/Senior league play, where coaches incessantly make pitching changes around the 25 pitch count, so the kid can pitch the next day.

Is there a point where this becomes the proverbial "travesty of the game"?

If there are no rules being broken, ... don't go looking to make one up as this could make your day much worse.  Also, ...if these teams are on time-limits, then that's THEIR problem ;) 

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

If there are no rules being broken, ... don't go looking to make one up as this could make your day much worse.  Also, ...if these teams are on time-limits, then that's THEIR problem ;) 

I second this.  If he is just trying to make sure he doesn't lose his best pitchers for the next day, then that's not a travesty, but rather good coaching.

IMO ALL lower-level baseball games up to about age 13 should be on time limits!  No one, and I mean not one soul, wants to be at a LL or Babe Ruth game for 2.5 hours watching a 47-35 game.  IMO the final scores are a travesty of the game in too many of the games I've officiated over the past couple of years!

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2 hours ago, philaump said:

I see this in Junior/Senior league play, where coaches incessantly make pitching changes around the 25 pitch count, so the kid can pitch the next day.

Is there a point where this becomes the proverbial "travesty of the game"?

Only if you have a wish to inject yourself to be the center of attention.   The game becomes a travesty when everyone's watching the umpire.

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5 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

If there are no rules being broken, ... don't go looking to make one up as this could make your day much worse.  Also, ...if these teams are on time-limits, then that's THEIR problem ;) 

I reminded them that there was a 2-1/2 hour time limit.  We only played 5 innings, due to that.

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1 minute ago, philaump said:

I reminded them that there was a 2-1/2 hour time limit.  We only played 5 innings, due to that.

Again, ... that's THEIR problem, not yours.   As I said and others iterated ... if there are no rules being broken, let it go

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3 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I second this.  If he is just trying to make sure he doesn't lose his best pitchers for the next day, then that's not a travesty, but rather good coaching.

IMO ALL lower-level baseball games up to about age 13 should be on time limits!  No one, and I mean not one soul, wants to be at a LL or Babe Ruth game for 2.5 hours watching a 47-35 game.  IMO the final scores are a travesty of the game in too many of the games I've officiated over the past couple of years!

Where I umpire- I know Junior and Senior Leagues have a 2-1/2 hour time limit.

I believe Intermediate (50/70) has a 2 hour time limit, and Major (Little League) has a 1:45 time limit.

@beerguy55I reminded him of the 2-1/2 hour time limit.  

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Just now, Thunderheads said:

Again, ... that's THEIR problem, not yours.   As I said and others iterated ... if there are no rules being broken, let it go

Outside of the reminder of the time limit, I ignored it.

It was one of those "last weekend of the regular season, and playoffs started Tuesday" type deals.  Outside of the last weekend of the regular season, I still umpire Junior/Senior leagues.

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3 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I second this.  If he is just trying to make sure he doesn't lose his best pitchers for the next day, then that's not a travesty, but rather good coaching.

IMO ALL lower-level baseball games up to about age 13 should be on time limits!  No one, and I mean not one soul, wants to be at a LL or Babe Ruth game for 2.5 hours watching a 47-35 game.  IMO the final scores are a travesty of the game in too many of the games I've officiated over the past couple of years!

Where I am- Prep Legion (14U) also has a 2-1/2 hour time limit.

As far as the baseball pecking order goes for summer ball:
1. Travel baseball
2. American Legion (Prep- 14U, Sandlot- 15U, Youth- 16U, Senior- 19U)
3. Junior (14U), Senior (16U), Senior Babe Ruth (18U)

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Another point to consider, since they CAN do this, it will catch up to them.  In order to be able to pitch the following day, they have to be under the threshold.   However, it only helps them that day.  No pitcher may pitch 3 consecutive days. 

I've seen the good news/bad news scenario.  If you get games early in the week, you could see this.  Conversely, at the end of the week, they could be out of pitching.

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1 hour ago, philaump said:

I reminded them that there was a 2-1/2 hour time limit.  We only played 5 innings, due to that.

When did you remind them?  Every time they wanted to change the pitcher?

Mention the time limit at the plate meeting.  Tell coaches you want to see hustle between innings. (I don't know how umps feel about this, but as a coach I never had a problem with this)  Keep the conferences short.   Keep the batter with one foot in the box getting signals.  There are better, and more subtle, ways to keep the pace of the game moving.  But if they're just doing a standard sub, and pitcher is doing his warmup pitches, and coach isn't doing a ridiculously long mound meeting, stay out of it.   

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22 hours ago, philaump said:

Is there a point where this becomes the proverbial "travesty of the game"?

Already crossed that bridge, back when they (in this case, LL) implemented exact pitch count limits and restrictions. 

Most other tournament series (USSSA, Triple Crown, etc.) have adopted an innings -based limit, which lessens the burden and tumult involved in managing and administrating not only the game itself, but also beyond the game. 

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15 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

When did you remind them?  Every time they wanted to change the pitcher?

Mention the time limit at the plate meeting.  Tell coaches you want to see hustle between innings. (I don't know how umps feel about this, but as a coach I never had a problem with this)  Keep the conferences short.   Keep the batter with one foot in the box getting signals.  There are better, and more subtle, ways to keep the pace of the game moving.  But if they're just doing a standard sub, and pitcher is doing his warmup pitches, and coach isn't doing a ridiculously long mound meeting, stay out of it.   

I told them of the time limit at the plate meeting, encourage the kids to hustle in/out, and to limit the huddles between innings.  I reminded the coach of this in the 4th inning, when the game was at 2 hours.

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39 minutes ago, philaump said:

I told them of the time limit at the plate meeting, encourage the kids to hustle in/out, and to limit the huddles between innings.  I reminded the coach of this in the 4th inning, when the game was at 2 hours.

It sounds like you did all you can do. It's an unfortunate situation with no remedy other than coaches caring more about development and good baseball than winning games.

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21 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

"Time. another pitching change, Ok coach"  

note "book."

count warm ups

advise pitcher of men on base & outs. clean plate, Assume position...

"Play"

rinse - repeat.

 

Is that a LL thing? Which levels do you do it for? I only have ever seen LL umpires do this, and they often carry it to other games (travel-ball, and even sub-varsity HS). Is it really the umpires responsibility to do this? Where did this practice come from? Is this a practice that other umpires use in games? I have never seen it taught anywhere. I've even worked with some that feel the need to broadcast the score between each half inning.

I do my best to discourage this practice. Just curious as to how you learned this and why you feel there is a need to do this. Not bashing at all, just wondering where and why this practice came about. I don't feel a need for it, but that is just my opinion.

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24 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

Is that a LL thing? Which levels do you do it for? I only have ever seen LL umpires do this, and they often carry it to other games (travel-ball, and even sub-varsity HS). Is it really the umpires responsibility to do this? Where did this practice come from? Is this a practice that other umpires use in games? I have never seen it taught anywhere. I've even worked with some that feel the need to broadcast the score between each half inning.

I do my best to discourage this practice. Just curious as to how you learned this and why you feel there is a need to do this. Not bashing at all, just wondering where and why this practice came about. I don't feel a need for it, but that is just my opinion.

 

yep LL thing.. 

8-12 So minors and majors..

I never understood it but I was told to do it.

So I do.

 

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@JonnyCat, I completely agree. I have started seeing this mechanic more and more outside of LL. I don't feel an umpire should be a scoreboard. Sure, I give the count at the appropriate times. And give the outs when asked. But, giving the outs and baserunners on with every pitching change?

~Dawg

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1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

yep LL thing.. 

8-12 So minors and majors..

I never understood it but I was told to do it.

So I do.

 

I've seen it in LL, but nobody in my chain is teaching that right now.

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No one ever explained the why to me as to why we do it.

 

So here is my own thoughts on it.

8 to 12 you got a kid who may have just caught his 1st chance to pitch and he's jazzed up he really wants to strike out that 1st kid so bad he cannot fathom anything else.  So you tell him  " Hey #12 or Hey Pitch  its 1 out and you got a guy on 1st and 2nd OK"  etc.

It may just snap him out of lala land and he may throw "strikes"  instead of a walk fest that you just got out of.

"focus"

Least that's my 2 cents on that.  for 2.98 more you can get a medium coffee at dunks

 

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11 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

No one ever explained the why to me as to why we do it.

 

So here is my own thoughts on it.

8 to 12 you got a kid who may have just caught his 1st chance to pitch and he's jazzed up he really wants to strike out that 1st kid so bad he cannot fathom anything else.  So you tell him  " Hey #12 or Hey Pitch  its 1 out and you got a guy on 1st and 2nd OK"  etc.

It may just snap him out of lala land and he may throw "strikes"  instead of a walk fest that you just got out of.

"focus"

Least that's my 2 cents on that.  for 2.98 more you can get a medium coffee at dunks

 

It stays around because it allows some umps to insert themselves into the game and become the center of attention at the mound. It's usually the BU that does it which flies against another umpire etiquette that F1 belongs to the PU. It should not be done even at rec levels. If you stop doing it where it is rampant you will have the pitcher turn and ask if you are going to "brief" him. Tell him that is his coach's job. If a chapter requires it at the rec level ask why they don't brief every sub as to the sitch. Have the BU run out to LF to brief a new F7.

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8 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

yep LL thing.. 

8-12 So minors and majors..

I never understood it but I was told to do it.

So I do.

 

Who told you to do it? Is that a district directive, something that's being taught at your training's? Or is it something a "senior" umpire told you to do with no explanation or basis for cause?

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6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It stays around because it allows some umps to insert themselves into the game and become the center of attention at the mound. It's usually the BU that does it which flies against another umpire etiquette that F1 belongs to the PU. It should not be done even at rec levels. If you stop doing it where it is rampant you will have the pitcher turn and ask if you are going to "brief" him. Tell him that is his coach's job. If a chapter requires it at the rec level ask why they don't brief every sub as to the sitch. Have the BU run out to LF to brief a new F7.

I agree, it needs to stop. Same for other things like the 10 minute plate meeting diatribe.

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