Pitcher hit by batted ball

[Guest DanMan]

I was watching a city Little League game last night with 12 year olds playing. The batter hit a line drive that smacked the pitcher in the cheek. Of course, play stopped, coaches charged the mound to make sure the kid was okay (as well they should.) The kid was shaken but walked off and grabbed an ice pack. The batter had made it to first and stayed there. I think this is how it should have gone down. The welfare of the pitcher is paramount, of course! However, rules-wise, what could have or should have happened for the runner? In-field double? Extra base? Should he have simply kept running? I emphasize, I am not saying he should have kept running and, in the spirit of sportsmanship, I'm glad he held it at first as we had a potentially serious injury but what would the rule book say? Thanks in advance!

[maven]

Many will agree with how your umpire handled it. But there's no rule support (LL might have something—I don't use that code).

The standard advice we give is: don't stop the game unless you see evidence of a life threatening injury (blood coming out of the ears, F1's unconscious or not breathing, etc.), or unless the injured player is at substantial risk of further injury (an infielder who falls near a base). The problem (besides no rule support) with stopping the game is the one you raise: place the runners. It's more complicated when R2 scores on the play.

Plays like this end on their own within a few seconds (most youth runners take 4–5 seconds to reach their advance base). Those seconds are almost never critical for the actual welfare of an injured player.

Of course, optics....

[SeeingEyeDog]

And for you coaches out there...

Whatever a rule book says or doesn't say, we don't run with kids on the ground.

~Dog

[ArchAngel72]

Going off of LL training I got

 

I seem to recall they said it fit under 9.01c  Each umpire has the authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

 

Doc and the other trainers were telling us #1 thing is child safety.   You see a kid take a ball to the face or something where he crumples to the ground and he/she is in pain. Blow it dead tend to the kid and then make a ruling on where you think runner should be.   This is from my memory and what I recall. 

I play it that way.  The other thing LL is cracking down on hard is coaches berating the kids.  I spoke to one coach who yelled at a kid who did not sprint to 3rd and after sliding in he yelled from 2 feet away " YOU GOTTA MOVE!!!"   

I took him aside and chatted with him about bullying and berating the kids like that and asked him to cool his tone. Explained there are too many complaints now from parents about coaches bullying kids.   He gave me the " Jesus we are all a bunch of nanny's now aren't we"   He was not directing it at me it was at society,  we were also quietly discussing this in between innings.

 

Not 2 innings later one of his kids got caught off 1st on a lazy line drive to the 2nd baseman and got doubled up.   He walked down the line to the 3rd base line and Yelled at the kid from there "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!"

In hind site I should have run him right then and there..  

found out after the game the PU told me that kid was in the dugout crying after that scene.

I'm just happy his team was bounced from the playoffs and we wont see them again in this tourney

 

Any way sorry did not mean to detract from the thread..

 

[aaluck]

In youth baseball just kill it and give everyone a base. @maven is correct on the particulars, but below high school ball, in this day and age, I always just stop play anytime someone gets hit in the head (not the leg or arm, etc) with a baseball. I've never had a coach say a word about stopping play on a kid getting hit in the head.

[LRZ]

Maybe because I'm a lawyer, not a doctor.... A shot to the face or head? A high school kid is still a kid. I'm stopping play immediately and awarding bases as appropriate. Whatever occurs after I call time--such as the BR continuing to run the bases--is a non-event.

[aaluck]

13 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Maybe because I'm a lawyer, not a doctor.... A shot to the face or head? A high school kid is still a kid. I'm stopping play immediately and awarding bases as appropriate. Whatever occurs after I call time--such as the BR continuing to run the bases--is a non-event.

I don't disagree with you on that.  I guess what I should have said as to HS and above is any "shot" to the face, yes, probably stop it unless he bends down to pick up the ball and I'm letting that play out. In HS and college you would be surprised how many outs are gotten after a kid takes a shot.

As far as youth ball, I'm going a step further and killing any hit to the head (ie. fly ball hits F5 on the top of the head, grounder takes a bad hop and hits kid in the face).

[LRZ]

2 minutes ago, aaluck said:

unless he bends down to pick up the ball and I'm letting that play out.

I should have said "if the kid goes down...."  You make a good point, aaluck: does the kid go down or does he play the ball?

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, LRZ said:

Maybe because I'm a lawyer, not a doctor.... A shot to the face or head?

With the exception of the potential dental or nose/cheek reconstruction bill, is there really a difference?   Both are likely putting the kid into concussion protocol.  Even if he does recover to look straight up and catch the ball as it comes back down for the out.

In the early 80's I was at an Expos/Padres game where Andre Dawson drilled one off the reliever's head...and was caught in foul territory by F3 for the out.   F1 goes to the hospital...and the next night he pitched again.  Times have changed.

[LRZ]

Perhaps I was not clear: I was equating the two.  A shot above the shoulders, to either the face or head, and I'm calling time.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2019 LL Rules Instruction Manual

rule 5.10 - The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls “Time.” The Umpire-in-Chief shall call “Time” –

(c) when an accident incapacitates a player or an umpire:

 INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

 ➔ If the umpire does call “Time” while a play is in progress, before he/she resumes play he/she must make the determination what would have occurred had he/she not suspended play? This may involve calling a runner out or advancing runners.

 ➔ The granting of “Time”, is not automatic. “Time” shall be granted if, in the umpire’s judgment, it is necessary.

[Vegas_Ump]

LL Rules:  Technically, you play on until the play is over, and you can call time and render aid to the fallen player! (For example, the batter is in jeopardy of being tagged out on a subsequent play.)

HOWEVER, I am a Dad too!  And and I cannot stand the idea of a kid being hurt in that manner and just ignore it.  I support 100% the decision of the umpire.  And I would not let the OM twist my arm otherwise.  (And I have had that happen before!)

Slightly related:  We had a District playoff game and the following occurred:  R3, no outs.  B4 lines one off F1's melon!  The ball ricocheted way up, as R3 bolted for home.  F7 ran in and made the catch.  The defense made an unmistakable appeal that R3 left before the catch.  The umps ruled that the bounce off F1's head constituted the beginning of the catch, and therefore R3's score was legal.

F1 WAS concussed and taken to the hospital.  He recovered fine and played a few days later.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, Vegas_Ump said:

LL Rules:  Technically, you play on until the play is over, and you can call time and render aid to the fallen player! (For example, the batter is in jeopardy of being tagged out on a subsequent play.)

HOWEVER, I am a Dad too!  And and I cannot stand the idea of a kid being hurt in that manner and just ignore it.  I support 100% the decision of the umpire.  And I would not let the OM twist my arm otherwise.  (And I have had that happen before!)

Slightly related:  We had a District playoff game and the following occurred:  R3, no outs.  B4 lines one off F1's melon!  The ball ricocheted way up, as R3 bolted for home.  F7 ran in and made the catch.  The defense made an unmistakable appeal that R3 left before the catch.  The umps ruled that the bounce off F1's head constituted the beginning of the catch, and therefore R3's score was legal.

F1 WAS concussed and taken to the hospital.  He recovered fine and played a few days later.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

Wait can’t another player catch a deflection off another player as an out?  So long as its not intentional and a cap or something other than a glove? Oh is this LL rules?

[Lou B]

The out counts but the runner can "tag-up" (leave the base) once the first fielder touches the ball (or the ball touches him).

Since there were no outs the run scores, if there were two outs it would not.

[stevis]

As a practical matter, this one would count as "incapacitate" in my book.  A head shot for a 12 year old?  I want medical attention on him ASAP. 

I'm probably--as per the comments @Senor Azul cites--giving one base to every runner (forced or not), unless someone catches the rebound. 

I've done this once in my career, when a pitcher got cup checked on a comebacker.  Less serious, and maybe I didn't need to, but I sleep well with that call. No runners on that time so giving the batter runner first was easy. (Baseball ricocheted toward the 3rd base dugout, clearly no play if I'd let it continue).  Offensive manager actually came out to ask me if I should give his batter more.  I gave him the "get real" look and we went back to baseball.

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, stevis said:

As a practical matter, this one would count as "incapacitate" in my book.  A head shot for a 12 year old?  I want medical attention on him ASAP. 

 

The coaches will run out ASAP whether you call time or not.  As long as they don't interfere in the play, let them go.  So, you get BOTH the attention as quickly as possible AND let the play stand.

[stevis]

16 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The coaches will run out ASAP whether you call time or not.  As long as they don't interfere in the play, let them go.  So, you get BOTH the attention as quickly as possible AND let the play stand.

I guess I have trouble with the notion that the play is the most important thing when a player takes a shot to the head--at any level, including MLB!

"Baseball is a game" is text in Rule 1.01 in both MLB and Little League codes.  The world keeps spinning on its axis if we place runners once in a while.

[ArchAngel72]

9 hours ago, Lou B said:

The out counts but the runner can "tag-up" (leave the base) once the first fielder touches the ball (or the ball touches him).

Since there were no outs the run scores, if there were two outs it would not.

 

But in other words the umpires were declaring at the time of the ball striking the pitcher the runner was on the base thus he tagged up.   AND/OR  No one saw it so they could not declare he did not tag up. 

[aaluck]

10 hours ago, stevis said:

As a practical matter, this one would count as "incapacitate" in my book.  A head shot for a 12 year old?  I want medical attention on him ASAP. 

I'm probably--as per the comments @Senor Azul cites--giving one base to every runner (forced or not), unless someone catches the rebound. 

Not to nitpick but if you allow the rebound to be caught for an out you haven't killed the play once he was hit in the head. Once you call time there can be no catch--the play is dead. Say you have R1 and R2 bolting off the bases and after the catch he whips it around the horn for a triple play are we now going to allow the three outs just because the rebound was caught? Even though he was hit in the head?

This is why I believe we have to see what happens, at least for a couple of seconds.

[beerguy55]

41 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Not to nitpick but if you allow the rebound to be caught for an out you haven't killed the play once he was hit in the head. Once you call time there can be no catch--the play is dead. Say you have R1 and R2 bolting off the bases and after the catch he whips it around the horn for a triple play are we now going to allow the three outs just because the rebound was caught? Even though he was hit in the head?

This is why I believe we have to see what happens, at least for a couple of seconds.

As stated above...the ump would have a lot of leeway to apply common sense here, and call outs that would have happened, even though he killed the play.

 INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

 ➔ If the umpire does call “Time” while a play is in progress, before he/she resumes play he/she must make the determination what would have occurred had he/she not suspended play? This may involve calling a runner out or advancing runners.

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

The coaches will run out ASAP whether you call time or not.  As long as they don't interfere in the play, let them go.  So, you get BOTH the attention as quickly as possible AND let the play stand.

^^This^^  I've seen it more than a few times and this is exactly how it plays out.

And, frankly, after, people are upset and/or freaked out by the injury, and emotionally drained...when the ambulance has left, and then the umpire makes a determination of where runners should be placed, there's no argument....I've yet to run across a coach douchey enough to argue about a base or an out in the aftermath of a kid who just got scraped off the diamond.

[aaluck]

3 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

^^This^^  I've seen it more than a few times and this is exactly how it plays out.

I agree with that statement as well and, yes, that's usually how it plays out in all youth ball.  And, yes, no one usually says a word in youth ball for fear of looking like an idiot. But now and again you'll come across that idiot.

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, stevis said:

I guess I have trouble with the notion that the play is the most important thing when a player takes a shot to the head--at any level, including MLB!

 

No one is saying that.  The issue is that this is NOT an either / or situation.  It's not "Call time immediately and the kid has no issues" vs. "let the play continue for a few seconds and the kid is gravely injured."  You can get the kid the care that is available in a reasonable amount of time AND let enough of the play happen to know what to do.

[kylehutson]

23 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I've yet to run across a coach douchey enough to argue about a base or an out in the aftermath of a kid who just got scraped off the diamond.

My very first game as a home plate umpire at a rec league (13U). Kid breaks his ankle sliding into home (came up short of the plate) as the throw from the outfield ricochets off the fence. A few seconds later, the catcher retrieves the ball and tags the runner for the out. After the ambulance left, the coach asked if the run should have counted.

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, stevis said:

I guess I have trouble with the notion that the play is the most important thing when a player takes a shot to the head--at any level, including MLB!

"Baseball is a game" is text in Rule 1.01 in both MLB and Little League codes.  The world keeps spinning on its axis if we place runners once in a while.

I understand your point, but 99.9% of the time this scenario is done in under five seconds.   Practically speaking, as said above, parents/coaches are running to the kid immediately...most kids have stopped running anyway, or will at the next base...and fielders may or may not have the presence of mind to play the ball...most of the time one kid gets the ball and everyone stops - so if you wait five seconds the baseball matter is resolved, and the matter of the injury is already in progress.

The bigger picture, and more common event, is when a "less serious" injury plays out and there is an ongoing play (eg. first baseman blows a knee moving to a line drive - he goes down, ball goes into OF corner, batter and runners are looking to score) - and I think in competitive/club/HS ball and up you want that play to end...younger and more recreational levels you probably have more support to kill the play early, but practically speaking, even though the kid is in pain, you're really talking less than 20 seconds to the time the ball is thrown back into the infield.

In baseball...that 5 to 20 seconds isn't going to make a difference, except maybe one in a million times.   Hockey, when someone gets a skate to the jugular, is when those five seconds matter.

And, I get it, 'cause I've been that kid...when it's happening to you five seconds seems like a life time.

 

 

[aaluck]

5 hours ago, stevis said:

"Baseball is a game" is text in Rule 1.01 in both MLB and Little League codes.

True...until that stoppage causes someone to lose a run or an out that could have an effect on the outcome.  Then "it's just a game" goes out the window, as stated above by @kylehutson.  Thats why I stick with my original post and I treat this differently for HS and college games.