Rulebook in your face?

[Vegas_Ump]

My ejection last week was not nearly as exciting as the one where just about everybody got ejected!  But my sitch did beg a question.  [AAA Little League.]

First, HT up, botton 2nd, 2 outs.  4-3 play, but F4 booted it and then F3 stretched to make the catch on a banger.  Field Ump ruled out, but 1B coach asked him too get help.  Field ump told me he was not 100% sure that F3 didn't pull his foot, so what did I see?  I told him, yes, the foot clearly had 3 inches of daylight.  Field ump changed the call to safe.  Bottom of the second continues.

As HT bats, we had Charlie at bat, but Baker was the proper batter.  1B coach recognized this, called time, and brought this to my attention.  I called Baker out of the dugout to inherit a 1-2 count.  VTM went ballistic and said it should have been an out.

HT is eventually retired.  Between innings VTM comes running out and wants to get in my face about the pulled foot call.  (First, it was way late!)  But I told him that's what I saw, and it's a judgement call.  Then he says, "Well your judgement on the strike zone is really bad too!"  I gave him a warning for arguing judgment calls.  He says, "Well, you better go ahead and give me a second warning!"  I said, "No coach!  You're gone!"  The embroglio settled down as the 3rd inning started.  He had ejected himself out of the game.

Between innings, the acting VTM came out with a rule book in his hand opened to the Able-Baker-Charlie BOO rule.  I told him he needs to read it, and he would see that I ruled correctly.  At that point, I wondered about any manager or coach who comes and shoves a rulebook in my face.  (I ejected a coach out of a State Tournament several years ago for doing just that.)

To me, a rulebook-in-the-face is grounds for an automatic ejection.  In this case, however, I did not want to pick up that end off the stick, since the VT was already down to 2 adults.  I think under normal circumstances, I would toss the guy.  And he was not being belligerent, and I was willing to chalk this one up to his inexperience.

So, how do you feel about having a rulebook shoved in your face?

Mike

Las Vegas

 

 

 

[johnpatrick]

"Skip, you're welcome to look at the book in the dugout, but we're not conducting a rules clinic on the field".

[Replacematt]

I'm not going to know what rule the coach wants to discuss because it'll never get to that point. If it's in hand as they leave the dugout, I will tell them not to go any further; if they pull it out on me, they aren't staying.

[umpstu]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

I'm not going to know what rule the coach wants to discuss because it'll never get to that point. If it's in hand as they leave the dugout, I will tell them not to go any further; if they pull it out on me, they aren't staying.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS   

[umpstu]

6 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

My ejection last week was not nearly as exciting as the one where just about everybody got ejected!  But my sitch did beg a question.  [AAA Little League.]

First, HT up, botton 2nd, 2 outs.  4-3 play, but F4 booted it and then F3 stretched to make the catch on a banger.  Field Ump ruled out, but 1B coach asked him too get help.  Field ump told me he was not 100% sure that F3 didn't pull his foot, so what did I see?  I told him, yes, the foot clearly had 3 inches of daylight.  Field ump changed the call to safe.  Bottom of the second continues.

As HT bats, we had Charlie at bat, but Baker was the proper batter.  1B coach recognized this, called time, and brought this to my attention.  I called Baker out of the dugout to inherit a 1-2 count.  VTM went ballistic and said it should have been an out.

HT is eventually retired.  Between innings VTM comes running out and wants to get in my face about the pulled foot call.  (First, it was way late!)  But I told him that's what I saw, and it's a judgement call.  Then he says, "Well your judgement on the strike zone is really bad too!"  I gave him a warning for arguing judgment calls.  He says, "Well, you better go ahead and give me a second warning!"  I said, "No coach!  You're gone!"  The embroglio settled down as the 3rd inning started.  He had ejected himself out of the game.

Between innings, the acting VTM came out with a rule book in his hand opened to the Able-Baker-Charlie BOO rule.  I told him he needs to read it, and he would see that I ruled correctly.  At that point, I wondered about any manager or coach who comes and shoves a rulebook in my face.  (I ejected a coach out of a State Tournament several years ago for doing just that.)

To me, a rulebook-in-the-face is grounds for an automatic ejection.  In this case, however, I did not want to pick up that end off the stick, since the VT was already down to 2 adults.  I think under normal circumstances, I would toss the guy.  And he was not being belligerent, and I was willing to chalk this one up to his inexperience.

So, how do you feel about having a rulebook shoved in your face?

Mike

Las Vegas

 

 

 

He's gone

[stevis]

I definitely think that you have to remember that at Little League minors, the assistant coach is almost certainly a parent who volunteered and/or was press-ganged because their kid was on the team.  They don't know the protocol around rulebooks.  This is the perfect time to teach them--definitely don't run a rules clinic on the field, state that you're not doing that, and declare that many umpires would have run them just for pulling the rulebook out.  I think you did well for the situation.

[catsbackr]

Me:  "Coach, don't bring that out here."

 

Me:  "Coach, don't bring that out here, that's your warning."

 

Me:  "Coach, your gone."

[LRZ]

It is ironic, however, that the LL RIM instructs umpires thusly: "IMPORTANT Carry your rulebook. It is better to consult the Rules and hold up the game long enough to decide a knotty problem than to have a game protested and possibly replayed."

[HokieUmp]

26 minutes ago, LRZ said:

It is ironic, however, that the LL RIM instructs umpires thusly: "IMPORTANT Carry your rulebook. It is better to consult the Rules and hold up the game long enough to decide a knotty problem than to have a game protested and possibly replayed."

What's ironic, to me, is that no one's bothered to go through that manual and edit it.  "Rulebooks don't come out on the field" has been A Thing for a long time, so there's no excuse to keep that in there.  Also, the phrase "knotty problem" probably hasn't been said or written since maybe 1894, so .....

[catsbackr]

4 hours ago, LRZ said:

It is ironic, however, that the LL RIM instructs umpires thusly: "IMPORTANT Carry your rulebook. It is better to consult the Rules and hold up the game long enough to decide a knotty problem than to have a game protested and possibly replayed."

And that has what to do with a coach coming out to argue a call with the rule book in his hand, how?

[LRZ]

I was merely pointing out the irony. A coach cannot come out with a rulebook ( I agree), but apparently, according to the LL RIM, he can come out and ask the umpire to take out his book and check the rule. 

[catsbackr]

I doubt the umpire has to have his rulebook on him.  I think his rulebook just needs to be available to him, just like every other level.  

 

I could be wrong though, I don't do LL.

[LRZ]

In my first post, I quoted the LL Rules Instruction Manual, which I will repeat, highlighting the relevant part: "IMPORTANT Carry your rulebook. It is better to consult the Rules and hold up the game long enough to decide a knotty problem than to have a game protested and possibly replayed."

[catsbackr]

25 minutes ago, LRZ said:

In my first post, I quoted the LL Rules Instruction Manual, which I will repeat, highlighting the relevant part: "IMPORTANT Carry your rulebook. It is better to consult the Rules and hold up the game long enough to decide a knotty problem than to have a game protested and possibly replayed."

I bet when you're working the bases, you "carry" your plate gear to the site.  You don't "carry" the plate gear to the field.  Do the same thing with your rule book.

[yawetag]

11 hours ago, LRZ said:

I was merely pointing out the irony. A coach cannot come out with a rulebook ( I agree), but apparently, according to the LL RIM, he can come out and ask the umpire to take out his book and check the rule. 

If a coach said "take out your rulebook and check the rule," it's probably leading to an ejection, too.

[LRZ]

All the snarkiness aside, I'm just quoting the RIM, not defending or endorsing it or the practice. Argue with Williamsport, not me.

[300e]

I can't believe your local LL uses two umpires for AAA..........I've been doing local LL for five years and outside of the local tournament championship games have had two umpires maybe three times, one of which was my first year and they wanted to check me out (I passed).  

And I doubt I would have dumped the guy on the first time.  I would have explained that's a no no, and had he continued, then he can take a walk to the parking lot.  I typically won't do this level any longer for just this reason.  Most of those coaches don't know how to behave with an umpire.

[Biscuit]

1 hour ago, 300e said:

I can't believe your local LL uses two umpires for AAA..........I've been doing local LL for five years and outside of the local tournament championship games have had two umpires maybe three times, one of which was my first year and they wanted to check me out (I passed).  

And I doubt I would have dumped the guy on the first time.  I would have explained that's a no no, and had he continued, then he can take a walk to the parking lot.  I typically won't do this level any longer for just this reason.  Most of those coaches don't know how to behave with an umpire.

I've never played any level, including just terrible, absolutely mind meltingly bad rec ball, where there were less than two umpires. Guess it just depends on where you are, and how bad the shortage is there.

[elares]

On 5/11/2019 at 1:32 PM, Vegas_Ump said:

embroglio

Awesome!!

[Mussgrass]

Please pardon my naivete. A manager may protest an incorrect rule application but he may not use to rule book to show an umpire the correct rule? Wouldn't we want to get it right and move on?

[catsbackr]

It's up to us to use OUR rulebook to verify the correct application of a rule if we are in doubt or challenged on the application of a rule.

 

Plus, they can look up anything they want to in the dugout in their rulebook.

[Aging_Arbiter]

1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

Please pardon my naivete. A manager may protest an incorrect rule application but he may not use to rule book to show an umpire the correct rule? Wouldn't we want to get it right and move on?

Correct, he can protest.  Mark the scorebook and move on.  Let him plead his case to the protest committee.

[Lou B]

If/when there is a Protest the umpires gather and discuss the call and make the final determination.  If, at that point, the manager still disagrees, record the Protest in the scorebook and Play Ball.  From there it's up to the Protest Committee to decide what to do.

I have never pulled out a rulebook while umpiring a game nor have I seen it done by another umpire.  At least not that I recall!

[The Man in Blue]

In the situation described, a bit of “etiquette guidance” would have been appropriate.  “Coach, I know you are in a pinch so I’m going to help you out a little bit.  Bringing the book on the field is not acceptable and would usually get you tossed.”

Now, most of us know that is the first time he has probably seen the cover of the rule book, let alone the inside of it.

Oddly enough, I have actually seen umpires pull the book out on the field and look something up.  I can’t recall what it was, but it was in a televised D1 NCAA softball game.  I believe it had to do with a rule that had been changed that season, but I could be wrong.  

[ArchAngel72]

On 5/17/2019 at 8:55 AM, Aging_Arbiter said:

Correct, he can protest.  Mark the scorebook and move on.  Let him plead his case to the protest committee.

 

At least games I have been in, during league play it's like that I believe, but if it goes to tourney I think all protests must be handled then and there, even getting a ruling from Bristol, or Williamsport if needed.