Check Swing Appeal or not

[maven]

1 hour ago, blue23ll said:

You could always ask the 3rd base coach

I did that once working solo. It was the 1B coach actually. He called a strike!

[beerguy55]

On 4/29/2018 at 8:23 PM, johnnyg08 said:

Strongly disagree with #8. 

 

Yup.   If the guy in A is not in good position, he won't see a swing, and will indicate that - no harm in him confirming the PU's "no swing" call.  If he sees a swing, it probably was a swing.   Coaches do start learning when it's likely they'll get a strike call and when they won't, and will start asking less.  The only way they learn is by letting them ask.

 

I also hate #5 - sounds like a guy looking for monsters under the bed.  I have NEVER in my life at any level, as a player or a coach, seen a coach/player abuse this, and I could probably count the times on one hand where a coach/catcher appealed on a check swing that didn't have a legitimate shot at being called a strike.

 

Also - if he's going to be in such a position of administrative authority, he needs better spelling and grammar.

[MadMax]

On 4/29/2018 at 4:00 PM, LMSANS said:

Ahh...the difference a month makes...here is a follow up email received from the same individual:

Because of inconsistent practice and not ever going to be a consistent mechanic regardless of NJSIAA or anyone else we must change the check swing mechanic.  Here is the guidelines for it starting today and moving forward>

1. try to make your own call as the plate umpire - use sound judgement
2. if blocked out or for any valid reason go for help immediately to your partner
3. if you do not call it an attempt and coach asks you to check then go ahead and check with your partner but be ready and ok with it if he does say he went
4. do not go as a habit for help - only when you truely need it
5. if the coach starts asking too much then hae a quiet 1 on 1 conversation with him and explain that it can't be a regular thing
6. if you call it a strike because he went - it can't be changed - once called a strike stays a strike
7. go over the procedure in your parking lot pregame
8. never go to partner in A position with a lefty batter
9. when partner is in B or C its tough for him to make a good judgement so as a simple rule of thumb if you think he attempted to try to hit it and pulled back too late go with the "he went"
10  hope this solves the problem for us and games go on

I don't know anything about a problem.

1. Sure. Great.
2. Sure. Great.
3. Now, see, this is what more... acerbic... umpires need to start understanding. It isn't about you – it's about getting the call right and getting the game over with. Checking with your BU partner(s) is not an affront to your authority. Checking is actually a manifestation of your game management skills; refusing to is often a symptom of the condition of those same game management skills.
4. Sure. Great.
5. See below, where I reply to @beerguy55's sentiments.
6. This is fundamental, set-in-stone fact within the Rules of baseball. No discussion necessary.
7. If with someone new (to you), sure. If with someone you have a repoíre with, then this is largely unnecessary.
8. This is absolute hogwash and an utter myth. My BUs know (or will soon find out) that I will check to them regardless if they're in A, B, C, D or at the right field fence, and whether it's a RHB, LHB, or the ultra-rare NHB (hey, don't discriminate!). I check because: A) I want a second opinion (likely because I got blocked out, or something happened like a HBP or a bunt-attempt with a runner going, and I'm tracking the pitch and reacting to the catcher), B) the catcher wants a second opinion (and I'm not a powermongering a$$hole), or C) the coach prompted the catcher to ask to check or he himself asked me to check, civilly. "C" rarely happens, as I usually cover it in "B" or "A" before it gets to "C". We – as an umpire team – want strikes, guys! If you have any doubt on a swing attempt, just go to your partner(s) and be done with it. If he says "No (he didn't go)", then... huh... well, that just confirms I didn't read it as a swing. If he says "Yes (he did!)", then... hey!... we're one strike closer to the end! Alright! Next pitch!
9. See #8. I don't care where my partner(s) are standing, if he's facing the plate, I'm checking with him.
10. How can anyone have a problem with this?*

This (*) is a facetious question. Obviously, there are a bunch of umpires who still do have a problem with this, and I've long held my suspicions as to why. A great deal of it has to do with the deification of PU in the NFHS rulebook.

 

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Yup.   If the guy in A is not in good position, he won't see a swing, and will indicate that - no harm in him confirming the PU's "no swing" call.  If he sees a swing, it probably was a swing.   Coaches do start learning when it's likely they'll get a strike call and when they won't, and will start asking less.  The only way they learn is by letting them ask.

I also hate #5 - sounds like a guy looking for monsters under the bed.  I have NEVER in my life at any level, as a player or a coach, seen a coach/player abuse this, and I could probably count the times on one hand where a coach/catcher appealed on a check swing that didn't have a legitimate shot at being called a strike.

What's going on behind the syntax, @beerguy55, is that some "established" umpires view a coach's "requests" to check as an affront to their authority and/or a masked ploy to argue balls and strikes. Pitch comes in, looks like a strike (from coach's perspective), batter flinches, PU balls it... "Come on Blue, how is that not a strike?! Well... check then!"... and from then on, anything that's close to the PU's zone, the coach is prodding for a check.

[ElkOil]

40 minutes ago, MadMax said:

1. This is fundamental, set-in-stone fact within the Rules of baseball. No discussion necessary.

Yeah, well, you'd think that. But there was this one game of mine where I was in A...

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, MadMax said:

1. Pitch comes in, looks like a strike (from coach's perspective), batter flinches, PU balls it... "Come on Blue, how is that not a strike?! Well... check then!"... and from then on, anything that's close to the PU's zone, the coach is prodding for a check.

Have you seen/experienced this?  If so, then just "wow" - no wonder FED lets an umpire refuse check swing appeals - that's a petty coach likely compensating for...something.  I've never seen anything remotely close to that behavior.

[Mudisfun]

On 5/1/2018 at 7:51 AM, maven said:

I did that once working solo. It was the 1B coach actually. He called a strike!

I did this over the summer as well.

F2 to me... blue, can you check that?

Me - quizzical glance at F2 and then a what the heck shrug... Point at 1st BC... Coach, did he go?

1st BC - ahhh, yes he did.

Me... ok, then that is a strike. Sorry batter, your coach threw you under the bus! 

[beerguy55]

On 5/2/2018 at 10:20 AM, Mudisfun said:

I did this over the summer as well.

F2 to me... blue, can you check that?

Me - quizzical glance at F2 and then a what the heck shrug... Point at 1st BC... Coach, did he go?

1st BC - ahhh, yes he did.

Me... ok, then that is a strike. Sorry batter, your coach threw you under the bus! 

Haha

Once as a player had a coach who didn't like the solo ump's call (on a safe/out call if I recall) asked for an appeal.

Blue: Appeal to who?

Coach: To yourself!  I'm asking you to appeal to yourself to change your mind

Blue: OK (brief pause) nope, still out.

[BT_Blue]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Haha

Once as a player had a coach who didn't like the solo ump's call (on a safe/out call if I recall) asked for an appeal.

Blue: Appeal to who?

Coach: To yourself!  I'm asking you to appeal to yourself to change your mind

Blue: OK (brief pause) nope, still out.

I've pulled this one as well. And of course, you need to quickly turn away and head back to your position before the coach realizes what just happened. Lol

[dumbdumb]

On 4/29/2018 at 7:00 PM, LMSANS said:

Ahh...the difference a month makes...here is a follow up email received from the same individual:

Because of inconsistent practice and not ever going to be a consistent mechanic regardless of NJSIAA or anyone else we must change the check swing mechanic.  Here is the guidelines for it starting today and moving forward.

8. never go to partner in A position with a lefty batter
 

So left hand batters get a free pass all year long?

I cannot believe State or NF goes along with this.

Can this person not be voted out of this position?, If they were voted in?

[LMSANS]

9 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

So left hand batters get a free pass all year long?

I cannot believe State or NF goes along with this.

Can this person not be voted out of this position?, If they were voted in?

Funny you should ask that question. He was voted out this week. Not because of this topic, though it probably contributed. He was our interpreter for 25 years, along with many state level positions. Most of the NJ guys on here know him. He was a good umpire. He just became full of himself.