Appeal process gone awry

[basejester]

Little League Major Softball tournament.  Ball is dead.  Defense wishes to appeal a runner missed home.  Coaches are yelling instructions regarding the appeal process across the field.  Offensive coach tells his batter to swing if it's a strike.  Pitcher toes the rubber.  Home plate umpire puts the ball in play.
 

Pitcher steps off and then moves about 3' to her left of the rubber and throws the ball overhand toward home.  (None of the players speak during the play.) The catcher moves forward toward the pitcher.  The ball comes in near the outside corner of the plate.   The batter swings at the ball and hits the catcher's mitt and hand.  The catcher is unable to catch the ball.  No runners attempt to advance.  Home plate umpire calls time for injured catcher.

 

What's your ruling?

[Rich Ives]

Pitcher was off the plate and threw overhand. Certainly not a pitch.

Due to all the conversations everybody in the park knew it was an appeal, including the umpire.

Batter out for interference with a throw.

An appeal isn't a play so the appeal can still be made.

[Jakeump]

Little League Major Softball tournament.  Ball is dead.  Defense wishes to appeal a runner missed home.  Coaches are yelling instructions regarding the appeal process across the field.  Offensive coach tells his batter to swing if it's a strike.  Pitcher toes the rubber.  Home plate umpire puts the ball in play.
  Pitcher steps off and then moves about 3' to her left of the rubber and throws the ball overhand toward home.  (None of the players speak during the play.) The catcher moves forward toward the pitcher.  The ball comes in near the outside corner of the plate.   The batter swings at the ball and hits the catcher's mitt and hand.  The catcher is unable to catch the ball.  No runners attempt to advance.  Home plate umpire calls time for injured catcher.   What's your ruling?

No timeout should be called unless the catcher is seriously hurt. Otherwise, it's catcher's obstruction and you play on. It is an illegal pitch, but it's a delayed dead ball and can be hit.
If all runners advanced one base safely and runner reaches first, the result stands. Otherwise, the coach can choose to award the batter with a ball and advance the runners one base or take the result of the play, which would be catcher's obstruction.

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[Jakeump]

Pitcher was off the plate and threw overhand. Certainly not a pitch.
Due to all the conversations everybody in the park knew it was an appeal, including the umpire.
Batter out for interference with a throw.
An appeal isn't a play so the appeal can still be made.

It's an illegal pitch, a delayed dead ball, and can be hit.

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[Gfoley4]

7 hours ago, Jakester5112 said:

No timeout should be called unless the catcher is seriously hurt. Otherwise, it's catcher's obstruction and you play on. It is an illegal pitch, but it's a delayed dead ball and can be hit.
If all runners advanced one base safely and runner reaches first, the result stands. Otherwise, the coach can choose to award the batter with a ball and advance the runners one base or take the result of the play, which would be catcher's obstruction.

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I’m not familiar with softball rules, but that does not sound right for baseball. If you step off the rubber and are attempting to make an appeal, it’s certianly not an illegal pitch and the onus is on the batter to not swing and interfere

[Jakeump]

I’m not familiar with softball rules, but that does not sound right for baseball. If you step off the rubber and are attempting to make an appeal, it’s certianly not an illegal pitch and the onus is on the batter to not swing and interfere

You are right. I missed the part about them trying for the appeal. Also, if they legally step off, there isn't an illegal pitch.

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[basejester]

13 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Pitcher was off the plate and threw overhand. Certainly not a pitch.

Due to all the conversations everybody in the park knew it was an appeal, including the umpire.

Batter out for interference with a throw.

An appeal isn't a play so the appeal can still be made.

This is how we ruled but were overturned during protest.

Which rule do you think is most pertinent?

6.06 - A batter is out for illegal action when -

(c) interfering with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by:
(1) stepping out of the batter’s box, or;
(2) making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s actions at home plate or the catcher’s attempt to play on a runner, or;
(3) failing to make a reasonable effort to vacate a congested area when there is a throw to home plate and there is time for the batter to move away.

7.09 - It is interference by a batter or a runner when -
(a) the batter hinders the catcher in an attempt to field the ball;

 

[BT_Blue]

10 minutes ago, basejester said:

This is how we ruled but were overturned during protest.

Which rule do you think is most pertinent?

6.06 - A batter is out for illegal action when -

(c) interfering with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by:
(1) stepping out of the batter’s box, or;
(2) making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s actions at home plate or the catcher’s attempt to play on a runner, or;
(3) failing to make a reasonable effort to vacate a congested area when there is a throw to home plate and there is time for the batter to move away.

7.09 - It is interference by a batter or a runner when -
(a) the batter hinders the catcher in an attempt to field the ball;

 

I would go with either 6.06c or 7.09a

The others that you listed wouldn't apply.

[basejester]

2 minutes ago, BT_Blue said:

I would go with either 6.06c or 7.09a

The others that you listed wouldn't apply.

Those are the only two I listed.  I mean 6.06(c) (2) specifically.

 

[BT_Blue]

2 hours ago, basejester said:

Those are the only two I listed.  I mean 6.06(c) (2) specifically.

 

I would lean more on 6.06c(2). Feels like that is more in line with what you are trying to get.

[Rich Ives]

6 hours ago, basejester said:

This is how we ruled but were overturned during protest.

 

 

Why? What did they say?

[basejester]

3 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Why? What did they say?

This only went as high as my DA.  His argument was that, as the appeal had not yet been formally verbalized, nothing of consequence was hindered.  So, do-over.

 

 

[Rich Ives]

5 minutes ago, basejester said:

This only went as high as my DA.  His argument was that, as the appeal had not yet been formally verbalized, nothing of consequence was hindered.  So, do-over.

 

 

It doesn't have to be formally verbalized. It just has to be obvious.  Ask him it he's ever see a "doubled off" appeal formally verbalized.

[scrounge]

All this nonsense...just allow the damn verbal appeal in the rules. What's the point of all this useless wailing and gnashing of teeth? "Sir, we want to appeal that he missed the base". "You're correct, he's out". Done. No more pointless Kabuki Theater, just ask what you're trying to ask and let's move on with life.
 

/rant

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, scrounge said:

All this nonsense...just allow the damn verbal appeal in the rules. What's the point of all this useless wailing and gnashing of teeth? "Sir, we want to appeal that he missed the base". "You're correct, he's out". Done. No more pointless Kabuki Theater, just ask what you're trying to ask and let's move on with life.
 

/rant

Because the rules also allow the offense to make a move that kills the appeal.

[Tborze]

6 hours ago, basejester said:

This only went as high as my DA.  His argument was that, as the appeal had not yet been formally verbalized, nothing of consequence was hindered.  So, do-over.

 

 

So do-over the appeal process?  If coaches yelling and instructing how to appeal isn't obvious enough, I don't know what is, and obviously neither does your DA!  I'm just curious. If there wasn't a pitch, how could it be batter INT?  Wouldn't it fall under INT by a team member?  Or something like that?  Allow DB appeals in lower levels and get rid of the BS!  LL girls SB?  Sorry, disregard this post

 

[basejester]

5 hours ago, Tborze said:

So do-over the appeal process?  If coaches yelling and instructing how to appeal isn't obvious enough, I don't know what is, and obviously neither does your DA!  I'm just curious. If there wasn't a pitch, how could it be batter INT?  Wouldn't it fall under INT by a team member?  Or something like that?  Allow DB appeals in lower levels and get rid of the BS!  LL girls SB?  Sorry, disregard this post

 

They had not lost the right to appeal.

It's entirely possible that the yelling of instructions was lost in translation.  I did not speak with the DA over the phone.

Why do you think a pitch is necessary for batter INT?  

 

[Rich Ives]

8 hours ago, Tborze said:

 If there wasn't a pitch, how could it be batter INT?  

The player that interfered was the batter.

[Tborze]

Sry, please disregard that!  I don't know what I was thinking, was a looong day. 

@basejester so, the pitcher steps off the rubber and throws to the catcher to appeal a runner missing HP. The batter swings at the throw and interferes. So because there seemed to be no verbal appeal recognized, there was nothing to INT with, so do-over.  As @Rich Ives mentioned an appeal is not a play, is that why 6.06c (2) doesn't apply?  Because there was no PLAY being made on a runner?

In LL, if the offense initiates a play, does the defense lose its right to appeal?  How would we rule in FED

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, Tborze said:

Sry, please disregard that!  I don't know what I was thinking, was a looong day. 

@basejester so, the pitcher steps off the rubber and throws to the catcher to appeal a runner missing HP. The batter swings at the throw and interferes. So because there seemed to be no verbal appeal recognized, there was nothing to INT with, so do-over.  As @Rich Ives mentioned an appeal is not a play, is that why 6.06c (2) doesn't apply?  Because there was no PLAY being made on a runner?

In LL, if the offense initiates a play, does the defense lose its right to appeal? YES.

How would we rule in FED. Appeal still allowed.

. Interspaced .

[scrounge]

23 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Because the rules also allow the offense to make a move that kills the appeal.

Meh, so what. Don't give the defense a reason to appeal if you don't like it. Useless waste of time IMO, that people will get nostalgic about like the pitching 4 balls for an intentional walk, and then promptly forget that the requirement ever existed once it's gone.

[basejester]

9 hours ago, scrounge said:

Meh, so what. Don't give the defense a reason to appeal if you don't like it. Useless waste of time IMO, that people will get nostalgic about like the pitching 4 balls for an intentional walk, and then promptly forget that the requirement ever existed once it's gone.

I don't exactly know why people in the Fed world haven't started doing this, but what's to stop the defense from saying, after every play, "I'd like to appeal each of the runners missed each of the bases," to the point that runners are essentially out as soon as the umpire noticed the miss (like that one crazy state does).   Maybe that's OK with people?  It's certainly not traditional.  

[kylehutson]

4 hours ago, basejester said:

I don't exactly know why people in the Fed world haven't started doing this, but what's to stop the defense from saying, after every play, "I'd like to appeal each of the runners missed each of the bases," to the point that runners are essentially out as soon as the umpire noticed the miss (like that one crazy state does).   Maybe that's OK with people?  It's certainly not traditional.  

Because of 8-2-6f:

f. More Than One Appeal. Multiple appeals are permitted as long as they do not become a travesty of the game.

Appealing "everything at once every play" falls into that latter category.

[scrounge]

6 hours ago, basejester said:

I don't exactly know why people in the Fed world haven't started doing this, but what's to stop the defense from saying, after every play, "I'd like to appeal each of the runners missed each of the bases," to the point that runners are essentially out as soon as the umpire noticed the miss (like that one crazy state does).   Maybe that's OK with people?  It's certainly not traditional.  

What's to stop an OBR team from just continually throwing over? Similar rule as @kylehutson just pointed out. If people want to make it a circus, the method of the appeal isn't really the distinguishing issue.

 

 

[beerguy55]

Does Little League Softball not allow verbal appeals?   Or did it not meet the threshold of a verbal appeal?

For Softball Canada...and I think ASA...the actions you described in the OP would have likely been taken as a verbal appeal.

This is the rule from International play - Official Rules of Softball:

DEAD BALL APPEAL. Once the ball has been returned to the infield and "Time" has been called, or the ball becomes dead, any defensive team member in the infield, with or without possession of the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base, or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should acknowledge the appeal, and then make a decision on the play. No runner may leave his base during this period, as the ball remains dead until the next pitch

EXCEPTION: A runner who has left a base too soon on a caught fly ball, or who has missed a base, may attempt to return to such base while the ball is dead.

NOTE: (a)If the ball goes out of play, the dead ball appeal cannot be made until the plate umpire places a new ball into the game.

(b) If the pitcher has possession of the ball and is in contact with the pitching plate when making a verbal appeal, no Illegal Pitch is called.

(c) If the umpire has declared “Play Ball” and the pitcher then requests an appeal, the umpire would again call “Time” and allow the appeal process.

I believe, also, the coach can request the verbal appeal during the dead ball, but must be on the field - not on the bench.

Unless LL Softball has rewritten this rule for their set, this should have been ruled on before the ball was made live, no?   Or, after it became clear the pitcher was appealing, call time to allow the appeal process.

I think the DA got it wrong two ways.

Not only in overruling your decision, but...

IF he did declare this a non-appeal, then you have an illegal pitch, with catcher's interference, not a do over.   The appeal is lost.

 

As well, any softball rule set I've coached would have just allowed any player with the ball to go touch the plate during the dead ball for a proper appeal.