Crazy pitch/no-pitch balk

[basejester]

Why penalize the offense?  If R2 can take two bases he should advance at his peril.  MLBUM and PBUC state that time should be called when a fielder possesses the ball in the infield and runners have stopped advancing. 

I think @StevenCraze has a valid argument from the wording of the rule.  You (and I) are making an argument from a sense of fair play and intent of the rules, which @StevenCraze rightly points out doesn't always apply.   We could make the argument that this is a throw, but I'm not sure that I'm even buying that myself.  If it's a 'slip or fall" out of the hand, it's just an unusually long drop.

[Mizzou2016]

Why penalize the offense?  If R2 can take two bases he should advance at his peril.  MLBUM and PBUC state that time should be called when a fielder possesses the ball in the infield and runners have stopped advancing.  

 

The offense isn't getting penalized. But, on that note, why double penalize the defense? 

There was clearly confusion on the play as a result of the balk. 

If its a balk and a wild throw, there's no confusion, the runners are advancing based on a throwing error, and F7/F9 is probably backing up on the play. If the runners advance 2 bases then that IS the defenses fault. In this case Ruiz is taking advantage - not of a poor throw or egregious error but - of confusion. 

This could have been prevented - as soon as the ball comes to rest "That's a Balk! Time!" or, if you're of the opinion that its not an immediate dead ball, then just "That's a Balk!"

I assume ML players know that if time is not called the play is still live. 

I am of the opinion that this doesn't meet the criteria for the AR (And I'm pretty sure I'm right), but if you think it should be a delayed dead ball, then it should be made clear that the ball is still live. Without that, the defense is getting double penalized. 

[johnnyg08]

I can see where you're coming from.  But players can be confused for a variety of reasons.  Even at the MLB level there can be confusion issues around in uncaught infield fly or any number of issues.  

Just a few weeks ago, there was a triple play because the runner didn't know who was out when the base was occupied by two runners.

Should we take away the triple play because R3 was confused?

Please understand, I get where you're coming from and you could be right.  We need to determine when the ball is dead, that's all...and from what I've read so far today, the rules are not clear on when the ball becomes dead when it slips from the pitcher's hand during delivery and doesn't cross the foul line.

[Richvee]

This is more of the same, but doesn't really clarify this situation. 

Are we ruling the play in the video a wild pitch or a wild throw? If yes, then the Approved ruling and Jim Evans interps apply. 

If not, then the interps do not apply, and the balk is enforced.

Actually it does apply. It's not a wild throw or a pitch, so the ball is dead and the balk enforced....

 

 

In summary, the enforcement guidelines are: The ball is always dead on a balk UNLESS

I can see where you're coming from.  But players can be confused for a variety of reasons.  Even at the MLB level there can be confusion issues around in uncaught infield fly or any number of issues.  

Just a few weeks ago, there was a triple play because the runner didn't know who was out when the base was occupied by two runners.

Should we take away the triple play because R3 was confused?

Please understand, I get where you're coming from and you could be right.  We need to determine when the ball is dead, that's all...and from what I've read so far today, the rules are not clear on when the ball becomes dead when it slips from the pitcher's hand during delivery and doesn't cross the foul line.

Normally, on a dropped ball from the rubber, it's not a real issue when time is called. The runners aren't running for an extra base. So the question is, Is a dropped ball from the rubber dead when it hits the ground, when it stops rolling, or when it's picked up/touched by a fielder. From the interps in this thread, I think it's pretty clear if it isn't a pitch or a throw it's a balk and dead ball. In the OP, it seems to me the latest "time!" would be called is when the fielder picks up the ball. At that moment, the ball would be dead. In the OP when the ball is picked up, R2 had not yet advanced to home, so 3rd would be his awarded base and no more. Had he advanced 2 bases before the ball stops rolling or before it's touched, then I think we have a case for awarding R2 home. 

[umpstu]

Here's what Evans says in his JEA:

"Interpreting the Balk Penalty (Enforcement Guidelines)"

Evans writes: "More than likely, the rulesmakers intened for the rule to cover throws to the bases and pitches to the batter. Assuming this as their intent, this AR would apply to Wild Pitch Ball Four in which case the batter advances at least one base AND Wild PItches that enable runners to advance or attempt to advance beyond their one base award

The AR is actually an exception to the penalty which awards all runners one base and kills further play. The rulesmakers evidently did not to unfairly penalize the offensive team by restricting their advance to one base. 

In summary, the enforcement guidelines are: The ball is always dead on a balk UNLESS 
1. Following the balk the pitcher delivers the pitch and all runners including the batter runner advance at least one base (Ball remains alive and runners are in jeopardy)
2. Following the balk, the pitcher throws wild to a base or pitches wild to the batter and all runners excluding the batter advance at least one base. (Ball remains alive and runners may advance beyond one base at their own peril. After all play stops, the umpire shall call "Time" and nullify the pitch. In the case of a wild pitch, the pitch would not be counted unless it was Ball 4)

It was a slip.  There was no balk followed by a pitch or throw.

[johnnyg08]

It was a slip.  There was no balk followed by a pitch or throw.

So then, it is always dead...right?

[Jimurray]

So then, it is always dead...right?

I'm buying into the dead ball argument. Dropped ball comes to stop in the infield. Balk, dead ball. I'll wait until they add this sit to the wild throw/pitch guidance in the MLBUM to call it differently.

[Senor Azul]

From the Jaksa/Roder rules interpretation manual:

It is a balk if a pitcher bobbles or drops the ball without beginning any motion, or allows the ball to bobble, drop, or slip during the motion to join hands, pitch, throw, or disengage.

A slip (as opposed to a pitch or throw) is a released baseball, intended to be a pitch or throw, but that lacks both aim and momentum. An intended pitch that slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses a foul line is a ball. An intended pitch that slips and does not cross a foul line is a balk if there is a runner, and no pitch if there is not a runner.

 

Back in the days of yore (in those lazy, hazy, crazy days of summer), pitchers used to intentionally drop the ball to trick the runner(s) into thinking they have a chance to advance on the miscue. Since it was a controlled drop the play usually turned into an easy out for the defense.  And that’s why we have rule 6.02(a)(11) [old rule 8.05(k)] today. 

[johnnyg08]

I don't think there's any dispute on the balk, but when the ball becomes dead?

[Mizzou2016]

I think we've determined that too. It's not a pitch, and it's not a throw. Ball is dead immediately, AR 6.02 does not apply. O'Nora and co. got the call right.

Now lets just acknowledge that he got it right immediately and we've been discussing it for 3 days. Those guys are impressive.

[umpstu]

Not until it stops or is picked up.  Had this verified today.

Here's what Evans says in his JEA:

"Interpreting the Balk Penalty (Enforcement Guidelines)"

Evans writes: "More than likely, the rulesmakers intened for the rule to cover throws to the bases and pitches to the batter. Assuming this as their intent, this AR would apply to Wild Pitch Ball Four in which case the batter advances at least one base AND Wild PItches that enable runners to advance or attempt to advance beyond their one base award

The AR is actually an exception to the penalty which awards all runners one base and kills further play. The rulesmakers evidently did not to unfairly penalize the offensive team by restricting their advance to one base. 

In summary, the enforcement guidelines are: The ball is always dead on a balk UNLESS 
1. Following the balk the pitcher delivers the pitch and all runners including the batter runner advance at least one base (Ball remains alive and runners are in jeopardy)
2. Following the balk, the pitcher throws wild to a base or pitches wild to the batter and all runners excluding the batter advance at least one base. (Ball remains alive and runners may advance beyond one base at their own peril. After all play stops, the umpire shall call "Time" and nullify the pitch. In the case of a wild pitch, the pitch would not be counted unless it was Ball 4)

It was a slip.  There was no balk followed by a pitch or throw.