Crazy pitch/no-pitch balk

[Mizzou2016]

The MLBUM directly states that B1 (as well as all runners) must advance one base for the play to proceed without reference to the balk unless AR 8.05 6.02 (2015) comes into play. B1 didn't advance; hence, balk. AR 8.05 does not come into play since it is not a wild pitch (not a legal pitch as it didn't cross the foul line), nor is it a wild throw to a base (it wasn't a throw to a base).

[Jimurray]

 

So let's say a pitcher loses grip of the ball as he rears back and the ball rolls into CF. One or both runners advance past their awarded base and are safe or out at the next base. You kill the ball when it comes to a stop in CF and move the runners back to the awarded base? I prefer keeping it live as MLBUM does with wild throws and pitches and killing it when all play has ceased. But I can't argue against you killing it either

[Mizzou2016]

You could keep it live, but I don't think that you'd be supported by the rules in doing so. You'll be unpopular with one team whether you kill it or not, but at least if you kill it you'd have the rule to support you. 

Also I can't picture a situation where a ball would roll that far just from a pitcher starting his delivery lol

How fast is this guys windup? 

[basejester]

I think we're OK with both teams on this play as long as we clearly communicate the status of the ball.

 

[zm1283]

The MLBUM directly states that B1 (as well as all runners) must advance one base for the play to proceed without reference to the balk unless AR 8.05 comes into play. B1 didn't advance; hence, balk. AR 8.05 does not come into play since it is not a wild pitch (not a legal pitch as it didn't cross the foul line), nor is it a wild throw to a base (it wasn't a throw to a base).

This is what I had when watching the video. 

[Jimurray]

This is what I had when watching the video. 

So when do you call time in the OP? And when did that happen in the OP? But I don't know if I would have been any quicker off the switch in the OP. It was a good result but it could have been a goat rope. The rules have a gap

[zm1283]

So when do you call time in the OP? And when did that happen in the OP? But I don't know if I would have been any quicker off the switch in the OP. It was a good result but it could have been a goat rope. The rules have a gap

I would probably call time when the ball comes to a rest when you realize it isn't crossing the first/third base line. 

I did think about it for a few minutes in regards to what you guys are talking about. It's not a pitch though so you can't let it play out and let runner's keep advancing, and all runners including the batter didn't advance, so you have to enforce the balk. 

[Jimurray]

I would probably call time when the ball comes to a rest when you realize it isn't crossing the first/third base line. 

I did think about it for a few minutes in regards to what you guys are talking about. It's not a pitch though so you can't let it play out and let runner's keep advancing, and all runners including the batter didn't advance, so you have to enforce the balk. 

When do we kill the ball when the pitcher off the rubber or anybody else drops or whatever else looses control of the ball?

[Richvee]

So when do you call time in the OP? And when did that happen in the OP? But I don't know if I would have been any quicker off the switch in the OP. It was a good result but it could have been a goat rope. The rules have a gap

You would have to wait for the ball to stop rolling before it crosses the line, or picked up,  to call time. My understanding is if it crosses the line it's a pitch and we're not killing it.

So when do you call time in the OP? And when did that happen in the OP? But I don't know if I would have been any quicker off the switch in the OP. It was a good result but it could have been a goat rope. The rules have a gap

It looks to me like ONora points to it, and I'd assume declares "That's a balk" when it stopped rolling. Did he actually call time? I don't know, should he have said "Time, that's a balk" when it stopped rolling?

[Mizzou2016]

When do we kill the ball when the pitcher off the rubber or anybody else drops or whatever else looses control of the ball?

You don't kill it because it wouldn't be a balk if the pitcher dropped it while not on the rubber.

[Jimurray]

You don't kill it because it wouldn't be a balk if the pitcher dropped it while not on the rubber

 The rule itself is contradictory. You have to go to MLBUM/PBUC to understand when to call time. 

The rule states that the ball is dead immediately. But it then states when the balk is ignored which requires you to not call time immediately. Then there is an approved ruling for a wild throw/pitch. The MLBUM/PBUC addresses when to call time. I believe the spirit of the rule enforcement in the MLBUM would allow runner advancement with a dropped ball as in a wild throw/pitch. 

If that ball crossed the line the run would have scored. If you kill it because it stopped before the line you are protecting the defense or offense from what may happen.

[Mizzou2016]

I understand the notion of the spirit of the rule, and perhaps that should prevail - but . . . balks are different. 

Example. Bottom of the 9th, 1 out, R2, tie game. Pitcher fails to come set, Batter hits a deep fly ball. Ball is caught, R2 tags and makes it safely as the ball is thrown out of play. 

Ruling: Balk is enforced. R2 gets third, batter returns to bat. 

Now if that run doesn't score, you'll be very very unpopular, but that is how the ruling has to be made. The balk has to be enforced. The coach does not have the option of accepting the result of the play because as soon as the batter does not reach 1st safely, the ball is dead. 

In this case, as soon as the balk occurs, because it was not a wild throw or pitch and the batter did not reach 1st safely, the ball is dead and the balk must be enforced.
 

[johnnyg08]

Here's what PBUC states:  it seems like they should have allowed runners to advance at their own risk beyond their award base until the ball was possessed by an infielder.

7. If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call “Time” until all play has ceased(runners have stopped trying to advance anda fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield).

8. If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call “Time” until all play has ceased(runners have stopped trying to advance anda fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield”

 

[Mizzou2016]

Here's what PBUC states:  it seems like they should have allowed runners to advance at their own risk beyond their award base until the ball was possessed by an infielder.

7. If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call “Time” until all play has ceased(runners have stopped trying to advance anda fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield).

8. If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call “Time” until all play has ceased(runners have stopped trying to advance anda fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield”

 

The balk was not followed by a wild throw or a wild pitch, though. The ball slipped from his hand - that is the balk. It wasn't followed by anything. 

[johnnyg08]

I visualize a mechanic that sounds like:  "That's a balk"  Watch Ruiz run, run, run...render a decision on the play at the plate, check to see that R1 has stopped advancing since the ball is possessed by an infielder and enforce the balk.  "Time, that's a balk.  No pitch.  Run scores, you, second base"  

A lot of moving parts in this one!!  

[Jimurray]

 

The balk was not followed by a wild throw or a wild pitch, though. The ball slipped from his hand - that is the balk. It wasn't followed by anything. 

Slipping from the hand was not the balk. Once it stopped before the foul line it became a balk. The argument then is that the ball is immediately dead per rule. I can buy that argument. But if by crossing the foul line that same ball could turn into a wild pitch, I would also argue that it should be treated as a wild something and apply the MLBUM principle. I think the immediate dead ball has more rule support and I don't think they are going to modify the MLBUM next year for this rare occurrence. 

[Mizzou2016]

I visualize a mechanic that sounds like:  "That's a balk"  Watch Ruiz run, run, run...render a decision on the play at the plate, check to see that R1 has stopped advancing since the ball is possessed by an infielder and enforce the balk.  "Time, that's a balk.  No pitch.  Run scores, you, second base"  

A lot of moving parts in this one!!  

And if you have a defensive coach that knows the rules and files a protest?

HAH jk I make myself laugh.

[basejester]

A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.
Rule 2.00 (Pitch) Comment: All other deliveries of the ball by one player to another are thrown balls.

 

Two things:

A) Was there a "delivery" of the ball to the first baseman?

B) Where's the rule about crossing the foul line? 

 

Slipping from the hand was not the balk. Once it stopped before the foul line it became a balk.

To be clear, you're balking him for this?

8.05 (a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;

 

[Mizzou2016]

A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.
Rule 2.00 (Pitch) Comment: All other deliveries of the ball by one player to another are thrown balls.

 

Two things:

A) Was there a "delivery" of the ball to the first baseman?

B) Where's the rule about crossing the foul line? 

 

A) No. Judgement call I would imagine, but in this case definitely no.

B) Rule 6.02(b) Comment (Rule 8.01(d ) Comment): A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.

[basejester]

B) Rule 6.02(b) Comment (Rule 8.01(d ) Comment): A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.

Thank you.  That's embarrassing.  I quoted that rule in this thread.

 

[Mizzou2016]

@basejester - to answer the second part, the balk I believe would be for 6.02(a)11 (2014) 8.05(k)

The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally has the ball slip or fall out of his hand or glove.

Although, I can get on board with 6.02(a)1/8.05(a) as the reason as well.  I don't think it changes anything
 

[johnnyg08]

Here's what Evans says in his JEA:

"Interpreting the Balk Penalty (Enforcement Guidelines)"

Evans writes: "More than likely, the rulesmakers intened for the rule to cover throws to the bases and pitches to the batter. Assuming this as their intent, this AR would apply to Wild Pitch Ball Four in which case the batter advances at least one base AND Wild PItches that enable runners to advance or attempt to advance beyond their one base award

The AR is actually an exception to the penalty which awards all runners one base and kills further play. The rulesmakers evidently did not to unfairly penalize the offensive team by restricting their advance to one base. 

In summary, the enforcement guidelines are: The ball is always dead on a balk UNLESS 
1. Following the balk the pitcher delivers the pitch and all runners including the batter runner advance at least one base (Ball remains alive and runners are in jeopardy)
2. Following the balk, the pitcher throws wild to a base or pitches wild to the batter and all runners excluding the batter advance at least one base. (Ball remains alive and runners may advance beyond one base at their own peril. After all play stops, the umpire shall call "Time" and nullify the pitch. In the case of a wild pitch, the pitch would not be counted unless it was Ball 4)

[Mizzou2016]

This is more of the same, but doesn't really clarify this situation. 

Are we ruling the play in the video a wild pitch or a wild throw? If yes, then the Approved ruling and Jim Evans interps apply. 

If not, then the interps do not apply, and the balk is enforced.

[basejester]

Here's a third world play just for fun:

1 out. R2 stealing on the pitch.  The ball slips out of the pitcher's hand but rolls up to the plate and stops.  The batter hits the stationary ball to F5 who throws out B1 at first base.  R2 touches home.   

Play on, right?  I'd think this is a pitch.  Lots of pitches don't cross the foul line when they are struck. 

 

[johnnyg08]

This is more of the same, but doesn't really clarify this situation. 

Are we ruling the play in the video a wild pitch or a wild throw? If yes, then the Approved ruling and Jim Evans interps apply. 

If not, then the interps do not apply, and the balk is enforced.

Why penalize the offense?  If R2 can take two bases he should advance at his peril.  MLBUM and PBUC state that time should be called when a fielder possesses the ball in the infield and runners have stopped advancing.