Tag, no tag

[Thunderheads]

http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=30334357&query=dispute

 

http://wapc.mlb.com/play?content_id=30334357

[basejester]

I can't tell, even with the benefit of the replays.

[Thunderheads]

I can't tell, even with the benefit of the replays.

OK, so it's not just me!

[Mudder]

In real time looks easily out, but F5 thought he was close enough to take a swipe at him, but the runner started to go down into his slide a fraction of a second before F5 maybe thought he would.  No bulging of the glove or jersey, looks like no tag.  Need more cameras.

[noumpere]

Do over.

[Texas Manny]

I wonder why Mr. Vanover moved in towards the middle of the base path between 2nd and 3rd? With a 3rd base umpire, I would have thought he'd be anchored closer to the cut out. It appears he accidently overran the play and tried to recover. It's all good Mr. Vanover. It happens to all of us. Great poise shown in the discussion to follow w/Mattingly.

[Mudder]

I wonder why Mr. Vanover moved in towards the middle of the base path between 2nd and 3rd? With a 3rd base umpire, I would have thought he'd be anchored closer to the cut out. It appears he accidently overran the play and tried to recover. It's all good Mr. Vanover. It happens to all of us. Great poise shown in the discussion to follow w/Mattingly.

 

I don't believe U2 overcommitted toward 3B, F6 chased the runner all the way back to 2B, what if he had tagged him much earlier, U2 has to be able to see that.

 

On closer look I think what saved the runner is that he stumbled and went down early, apparently avoiding the tag

[zm1283]

I know we can all armchair quarterback stuff like this, but ideally I think he would be closer to the cutout and stay closer to second base.  It would keep him at more of a 90 degree angle to the tag, not be straightlined, and he could be stopped when the tag happens.  I think he would take this play differently if he had it to do over.  

 

As far as whether there was a tag or not, the replays really don't show definitively, but it would have been a lot easier to sell it in a different position and not on the move.  

[Texas Manny]

 

I wonder why Mr. Vanover moved in towards the middle of the base path between 2nd and 3rd? With a 3rd base umpire, I would have thought he'd be anchored closer to the cut out. It appears he accidently overran the play and tried to recover. It's all good Mr. Vanover. It happens to all of us. Great poise shown in the discussion to follow w/Mattingly.

 

I don't believe U2 overcommitted toward 3B, F6 chased the runner all the way back to 2B, what if he had tagged him much earlier, U2 has to be able to see that.

 

 

 

When the runner took off, you could see that Mr. Vanover moved from his position on the base path between 1st and 2nd, entered the infield and started to hustle towards 3rd base. The play "exploded" on him, in that the runner reversed direction and quickly overtook him while he was moving towards 3rd still, and had to change directions. By that time the runner and fielder were past him already. He was behind the play, and was screened out.

 

I'm not coming down on Mr. Vanover at all. Like I said earlier, his poise was nothing but professional. I'm simply pointing out the steps of the replay to show how anchoring himself at the 2nd base cutout could have saved him.

 

By the PBUC Manual, umpires established at either end of the run-down, split the difference and a play within their respective half means it is their call. The runner in the video had already penetrated the cutout perimeter circle at third when he reversed course. Up until half way between 3rd and 2nd would have been the 3rd base umpires call. From the mid-point to 2nd was Mr. Vanoever's. Mr. Vanover was already half way between the mid-point and second base when the runner caught up to him on the way back to 2nd. The time it took for Mr. Vanoever to reverse course, allowed the runner, and the fielder to get ahead of him, and thus he was calling the play from behind. His momentum carried him through and he called the runner "Safe!" while moving. His momentum carried him till just the other side of second base. This is why I said he accidentally overran the play. I don't think he thought the runner was going to come back, but he did, and caught him, and then overcompensation happened.

 

Again, I am not ripping Mr. Vanover. We've all done this at least once in our umpiring careers as well. This video is an excellent tool to use for the purpose of discussing mechanics, showing what can happen on you out there unexpectedly, and how to handle the situation when a manager comes out to argue.

[blue23ll]

This is a tough play. U2 was fighting to get into a position to see the play and not be blocked by F6. I don't think he succeeded. So he was both blocked and moving on the call, a double whammy. The runner 'looked' out, but the only real call U2 could make was safe, based on his poor position.

 

I don't think you could have 100 cameras and be able to make a definitive call on replay.

[johnnyg08]

Replays are inconclusive.  U2 didn't have a great angle either.

[HeadHunterLA]

This is a tough play. U2 was fighting to get into a position to see the play and not be blocked by F6. I don't think he succeeded. So he was both blocked and moving on the call, a double whammy. The runner 'looked' out, but the only real call U2 could make was safe, based on his poor position.

 

I don't think you could have 100 cameras and be able to make a definitive call on replay.

My default call on something like that is out.

[UMP45]

 

This is a tough play. U2 was fighting to get into a position to see the play and not be blocked by F6. I don't think he succeeded. So he was both blocked and moving on the call, a double whammy. The runner 'looked' out, but the only real call U2 could make was safe, based on his poor position.

 

I don't think you could have 100 cameras and be able to make a definitive call on replay.

My default call on something like that is out.

 

 

[acpar72]

That one is easy for me. He is out. Unless it is game 7 in October, then I take a couple more seconds. Larry had terrible positioning.

[afaber12]

In answer to the question of "tag/no-tag", my answer is:

 

It was definitely one of those options, yes!

[Dannytheman]

Unless I see it, he is safe! But he did get asked to seek help, and he did, 1st base ump didn't see it clearly either. Safe! That is the way it goes, human factor is built in to baseball. Even next year this one would no be over ruled, while we all sit and watch 4 hour games.

[KLAH316]

Live, the way the runner sort of "Fell forward" after the tag, I think I'm banging the out.

[basejester]

 

My default call on something like that is out.

 

 

 

That's not a crazy idea.  When the ball is there for the tag, you have to see the miss.  I think that's conventional wisdom, really.

[Umpire in Chief]

I looked a few times and was looking for any movement on the jersey, but couldn't find it. I say good call.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

My default call on something like that is out.

 

 

 

That's not a crazy idea.  When the ball is there for the tag, you have to see the miss.  I think that's conventional wisdom, really.

 

 

I'm thinking you should have to see a tag.

[Thunderheads]

Call what you see, .... period

[mstaylor]

You are looking for one of two things, signs of contact or air on the tag. If you don't see either then he's safe. 

[noumpere]

You are looking for one of two things, signs of contact or air on the tag. If you don't see either then he's safe. 

I think that there are sometimes when you just can't see -- especially in 1 or 2 man.  So I think depending on the play you might have to see air, otherwise hes out and on others you have to see a tag otherwise hes safe.