ASKING FOR HELP

[Thunderheads]

RichMSN's "coaches visit" post spurred this on. I didn't want to hijack his post, but this is becoming irritating lately.

EVERYONE wants you to ask for help, on EVERYTHING. And, when you don't ask for help, THAT is what they get all pissy about!

Last night (14u travel, OBR, ... R1, 1 out. Ground ball to F6, bobbles it, ..flips poorly to F4 and it brings him off the bag..my partner SAFES him...) VERY NICELY and politely, my F2 turns and says, .. "can you help in something like that blue?" I say, ... absolutely not, ...from 100+ feet away? I said "first , he'd have to ask me for help, second, he'd never do that ...he's right there, and plus, can you imagine if that happend and for some reason I overturned his call from my vantage point?"

He just smiled, ... " yep, ...doesnt' make sense, ..thank you sir, I've always wondered that"

But it got me to thinking ...where is all this ASK FOR HELP crap coming from ?!?!?!? :shrug:

[MPLSMatt]

It's coming from every MLB game where Bert Blyleven or Hawk Harelson (oh you should hear his rant from yesterday), goes on and on about how umpires are "too proud to ask for help." I'm usually a big believer in getting help when needed (assuming I trust my partner to talk to me one on one and not shout something across the field), but I totally agree that some of these situations are ridiculous.

[JaxRolo]

I had the same thing last night. I was working a 10u game (a friend asked for a favor to this this lower level game)

No one asked me for a favor! One of my pet peeves is when I see a poster say something like this!

Back to the OP - The VC kept asking me to go get help from my partner on everything. No matter what it was. I never did because it was all stupid stuff that is clearly my call and I know I didn't miss anything because there was nothing that was really that close anyway. They lost. I am sure it was my fault! :smachhead:

[semper_fi_72]

Last weekend I was asked for help and really didn't expect to be that way.

13U USSSA game.

I have the plate and partner is a long time HS Umpire.

R1, 1 out.

R1 takes off on the pitch, Batter hits grounder to F5, nicely executed Hit and Run.

Only play F5 has is at 1B.

BR is fast.

F5 throws to F3 and F3 has to stretch for the ball.

R1 goes to 3B when F5 commits to throwing to 1B.

When the play developed I noticed it would be a close play at 1B.

When F3 stretches and catches the ball my BU turns and points to me without making a call.

For a micro second I was thinking WTF

I quickly signal off the bag and safe and notice I now have R1 rounding 3B and coming home so I quickly step back and get ready for that play which never occurs.

I was surprised a SH*# storm did not occur.

The only comment I heard from the DHC was "Blue that was your call. You make the call and then let someone ask for help if they are off the bag".

Between innings BU comes to me and says he knows he did it wrong but wanted to get it right the first call.

Being much Junior to him in HS I politely said, next time make the call and then let them ask about a pulled foot, please.

Just glad I was doing what I was responsible for and my quick reaction to his point probably saved us a lot of trouble.

[Daniel]

I hear this $hit a lot in summer ball.

Depending on multiple factors I pick either of these responses:

A. No, Coach! I had it.

or

B. *singals partner in*

Me: Damn, we got hot moms everywhere.

Partner: Yea I'm drooling.

Me: *turns away* OK call stands!

My favorites are being asked to go for help as BU by DC after signaling "Off the bag - SAFE" or by the OC after ruling a check-swing a strike as PU.

[Jocko]

If I think there might have been a pulled foot, or a swipe tag or something, I have no qualms about asking for help. Often, I will initiate the appeal myself if I was blocked or not positive of the play. After I make the call that is. I'm in "C". F6 throw pulls F3, but I see his foot get back down. Not positive if he was in contact with the bag. I bang the out and immediately get with HP to see what he thought. He tells me F3 pulled. I signal the pull and subsequent safe. My 1st priority is getting the call right. On the other hand, if I know what I saw, then I know what I saw. It's not an ego thing with me. I'd rather the outcome be correct. Subsequently, I don't entertain the HC that wants an appeal on every call. I have 2b no matter what. If I kick it, I own it. No way am I dragging my partner down with me.

[Tyennie]

This particular topic intrigues me... only because several years ago (it seems to me) it was taught to ask for help (if needed) and then make your call. (I am talking about a pulled foot or swipe tag at first.) Now I read that we make the call and then ask for help. (again if needed.) Is it me or did the "mechanics gurus" change things up on this process??

[LMSANS]

This particular topic intrigues me... only because several years ago (it seems to me) it was taught to ask for help (if needed) and then make your call. (I am talking about a pulled foot or swipe tag at first.) Now I read that we make the call and then ask for help. (again if needed.) Is it me or did the "mechanics gurus" change things up on this process??

The mechanic we were taught was to make the call as "I have an out if he held the bag (or if there was a tag)!" Point to PU and "Did he hold the bag (make a tag)?" PU then gives you what he saw. Personally, I have never used it, but I have gone to my partner (privately) after making my call & being requested. I have had this happen once when I was PU.

[SanDiegoSteve]

The mechanic has always been to ask for help before making the call, but you don't just point at the plate guy. The BU needs to ask one of two specific questions:

1) "Did he pull his foot?" (or "Did he hold the base/bag?" - however you want to word it)

or

2) "Did he tag him?"

Just pointing at the PU or saying "whaddya got?" is NOT acceptable.

[Thunderheads]

I like this discussion, but just to clarify....

this topic is about players and/or coaches asking us if we can get help, ...not the umpires helping eachother.

BUT ...as I said, ... I like the discussion :D

[SanDiegoSteve]

I like this discussion, but just to clarify....

this topic is about players and/or coaches asking us if we can get help, ...not the umpires helping eachother.

BUT ...as I said, ... I like the discussion

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Yeah, the coaches asking for us to get help on everything gets old. I shut that crap down early, in no uncertain terms. "No, that's MY call," seems to do the trick. I don't even entertain such suggestions from a PLAYER asking me for jack. They are there to play, not to address game officials. I will usually just stare back at them like they're from another planet.

[Thunderheads]

I like this discussion, but just to clarify....

this topic is about players and/or coaches asking us if we can get help, ...not the umpires helping eachother.

BUT ...as I said, ... I like the discussion

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Yeah, the coaches asking for us to get help on everything gets old. I shut that crap down early, in no uncertain terms. "No, that's MY call," seems to do the trick. I don't even entertain such suggestions from a PLAYER asking me for jack. They are there to play, not to address game officials. I will usually just stare back at them like they're from another planet.

Steve, ..NO NO NO, ...do NOT apologize, you did NOT hijack this thread, ...no worries, none whatsoever. It's all in the same realm, and plus, I didn't clarify it in my OP.

I like your comment "No, that's MY call" ...I like that a lot! :D

[dumbdumb]

How come all the requests occur when we call out because he held the bag, but hardly any requests when we say he is off the bag.

[Jocko]

Because 1BC is right there and KNOWS we get it right on that calll.

[noumpere]

How come all the requests occur when we call out because he held the bag, but hardly any requests when we say he is off the bag.

Because you'll only call "off the base" if you see it and your assumptions hsuold be that he is on the base until you see he is off so you might miss that.

[SanDiegoSteve]

How come all the requests occur when we call out because he held the bag, but hardly any requests when we say he is off the bag.

Because 95% of youth ball coaches don't know their asses from a hole in the ground about the game of baseball.

[Jocko]

How come all the requests occur when we call out because he held the bag, but hardly any requests when we say he is off the bag.

Because 95% of youth ball coaches don't know their asses from a hole in the ground about the game of baseball.

(standing ovation) CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!

[SoCal Lurker]

How come all the requests occur when we call out because he held the bag, but hardly any requests when we say he is off the bag.

Because 95% of youth ball coaches don't know their asses from a hole in the ground about the game of baseball.

Err, while I'm not sure I disagree with your knowledge premise, but I don't think this one supports it -- seems like the coaches are right to be asking about the possibility of help on a pull that was not seen but not on a pull that was seen. Is there ANY situation in which BU is going to call F3 off the bag and PU is going to provide help that he was on??

[noumpere]

How come all the requests occur when we call out because he held the bag, but hardly any requests when we say he is off the bag.

Because 95% of youth ball coaches don't know their asses from a hole in the ground about the game of baseball.

Err, while I'm not sure I disagree with your knowledge premise, but I don't think this one supports it -- seems like the coaches are right to be asking about the possibility of help on a pull that was not seen but not on a pull that was seen. Is there ANY situation in which BU is going to call F3 off the bag and PU is going to provide help that he was on??

Unfortunatly yes there is. lol.

Actually maybe one time would be if F3 fields the ball and races the BR to the bag maybe then the BU from the middle cant see if F3 touched the bafg or missed it.

[RichMSN]

If I think there might have been a pulled foot, or a swipe tag or something, I have no qualms about asking for help. Often, I will initiate the appeal myself if I was blocked or not positive of the play. After I make the call that is. I'm in "C". F6 throw pulls F3, but I see his foot get back down. Not positive if he was in contact with the bag. I bang the out and immediately get with HP to see what he thought. He tells me F3 pulled. I signal the pull and subsequent safe. My 1st priority is getting the call right. On the other hand, if I know what I saw, then I know what I saw. It's not an ego thing with me. I'd rather the outcome be correct. Subsequently, I don't entertain the HC that wants an appeal on every call. I have 2b no matter what. If I kick it, I own it. No way am I dragging my partner down with me.

My first priority is getting the best look at the call and then making the call. And then when the coach asks me to shop the call he didn't like to my partner, I tell him that I've already (1) worked hard to get a look and (2) made the right call.

I have asked a partner for help twice in 25 years. On one, an F4 ran right in front of me as the play happened at first and I saw my partner in position to see it. On the other, I got lazy on a comebacker and didn't get in position and F1 shorthopped F3 and I had no clue whether F3 fielded it clean, so I asked. Both were in the last decade.

I am *always* there to help a partner if he asks me, but I am unlikely to ask myself and neither are my regular partners. Many times when someone ends up asking, it's because the footwork before the call didn't put them in the right position to see the play themselves.

It's not an ego thing -- I really feel much of this "asking for help" would disappear if base umpires (in general) worked harder to get the right angle on the play at first base. And realized that most coaches ask because they're hoping for a reversed call, not because they honestly, in their heart of hearts, think you missed it.

[zm1283]

If I think there might have been a pulled foot, or a swipe tag or something, I have no qualms about asking for help. Often, I will initiate the appeal myself if I was blocked or not positive of the play. After I make the call that is. I'm in "C". F6 throw pulls F3, but I see his foot get back down. Not positive if he was in contact with the bag. I bang the out and immediately get with HP to see what he thought. He tells me F3 pulled. I signal the pull and subsequent safe. My 1st priority is getting the call right. On the other hand, if I know what I saw, then I know what I saw. It's not an ego thing with me. I'd rather the outcome be correct. Subsequently, I don't entertain the HC that wants an appeal on every call. I have 2b no matter what. If I kick it, I own it. No way am I dragging my partner down with me.

So you call a runner out at first, then immediately go get help without being asked? What other plays do you get help on without being asked?

The two ways to get help:

1) Ask your partner a specific question. ("Did he stay on?", "Do you have a tag?", etc) This is done before the call is made, then make your call depending on his answer.

2) Get in position, make your call, and let the HC/manager request you get help. This should rarely happen if you work hard to get the right angle like RichMSN says. I didn't have one request for help on a play at first this entire spring, regardless of where I was when the play started.

[scrounge]

If I think there might have been a pulled foot, or a swipe tag or something, I have no qualms about asking for help. Often, I will initiate the appeal myself if I was blocked or not positive of the play. After I make the call that is. I'm in "C". F6 throw pulls F3, but I see his foot get back down. Not positive if he was in contact with the bag. I bang the out and immediately get with HP to see what he thought. He tells me F3 pulled. I signal the pull and subsequent safe. My 1st priority is getting the call right. On the other hand, if I know what I saw, then I know what I saw. It's not an ego thing with me. I'd rather the outcome be correct. Subsequently, I don't entertain the HC that wants an appeal on every call. I have 2b no matter what. If I kick it, I own it. No way am I dragging my partner down with me.

So you call a runner out at first, then immediately go get help without being asked? What other plays do you get help on without being asked?

The two ways to get help:

1) Ask your partner a specific question. ("Did he stay on?", "Do you have a tag?", etc) This is done before the call is made, then make your call depending on his answer.

2) Get in position, make your call, and let the HC/manager request you get help. This should rarely happen if you work hard to get the right angle like RichMSN says. I didn't have one request for help on a play at first this entire spring, regardless of where I was when the play started.

I don't agree with 1), I think Trout's way is better. If I'm straightlined or otherwise not sure, I'll make the call on what I see (the throw) and ask about the foot.

[umpcoachfather]

_{possible pulled foot and you are the} BU_{, question to} PU _{" he have his foot?" partner says yes "Out" Partner says no "safe". #1 is the correct mechanic, provided your partner knows that, make sure during pregame.}

[mstaylor]

I agree with Rich, working hard and the use of proper mechanics will make most of the checking unneeded. Many times the PU has other things to do and can't handhold help the BU. Think about how often the PU is in position to help. R1 and infield hit, the PU is moving to the working area for an interference at second. He may have some kind of look but only slightly better than BU. Almost anything else he has third or home responsibilities so he can't help. About the only other time is going to be if he has a fair/foul on the first base side. The fact remains that 90% of the time the BU is on his own so he has to know how to get in position to get his calls.

This discussion is a prime example why the bases are as difficult as the plate and the pay should be the same. Most groups do that but some do not.

[zm1283]

If I think there might have been a pulled foot, or a swipe tag or something, I have no qualms about asking for help. Often, I will initiate the appeal myself if I was blocked or not positive of the play. After I make the call that is. I'm in "C". F6 throw pulls F3, but I see his foot get back down. Not positive if he was in contact with the bag. I bang the out and immediately get with HP to see what he thought. He tells me F3 pulled. I signal the pull and subsequent safe. My 1st priority is getting the call right. On the other hand, if I know what I saw, then I know what I saw. It's not an ego thing with me. I'd rather the outcome be correct. Subsequently, I don't entertain the HC that wants an appeal on every call. I have 2b no matter what. If I kick it, I own it. No way am I dragging my partner down with me.

So you call a runner out at first, then immediately go get help without being asked? What other plays do you get help on without being asked?

The two ways to get help:

1) Ask your partner a specific question. ("Did he stay on?", "Do you have a tag?", etc) This is done before the call is made, then make your call depending on his answer.

2) Get in position, make your call, and let the HC/manager request you get help. This should rarely happen if you work hard to get the right angle like RichMSN says. I didn't have one request for help on a play at first this entire spring, regardless of where I was when the play started.

I don't agree with 1), I think Trout's way is better. If I'm straightlined or otherwise not sure, I'll make the call on what I see (the throw) and ask about the foot.

What if you have other runners? That is a lot to do in a short time frame.

You guys are saying you call the runner out or safe, then go ask the PU if F3 kept his foot on the base? To me it looks like you're shopping your call to him.