Mask Pads Recommendation

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

Avast! Might a Mirage be on yer horizon, laddie? 

Possibly, if the concerns I raised about the pad/frame interplay I mentioned on the other thread are mitigated.

Also, in a former life, I worked as a forger of aluminum, steel, and titanium and am familiar with the properties of all of them (and it is F*#King criminal that aluminum frames are a thing.) I have some hesitance because I don't know magnesium quite as well.

[grayhawk]

3 hours ago, Replacematt said:

I took a shot in a college conference semifinal with them. It was a glancing blow that shouldn't have done anything, but it concussed me and I was out of commission for ten days after the championship (it was halfway through that game that things started to go wrong.)

That was the last time I've used anything made/distributed by Wilson.

Took another shot today with my Memory Foam pads and no ill effects. It was probably around a 90mph pitch fouled back. I think on some shots, it just isn't going to matter which pads you use. Just the right velocity, at just the right angle and somehow enough energy get absorbed by your head. I'm lucky to have never gotten concussed.

[concertman1971]

16 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Took another shot today with my Memory Foam pads and no ill effects. It was probably around a 90mph pitch fouled back. I think on some shots, it just isn't going to matter which pads you use. Just the right velocity, at just the right angle and somehow enough energy get absorbed by your head. I'm lucky to have never gotten concussed.

I personally know @grayhawk and have to disagree..... those shots have taken a toll on him!! LOL Love ya Steve!

 

[grayhawk]

2 hours ago, concertman1971 said:

I personally know @grayhawk and have to disagree..... those shots have taken a toll on him!! LOL Love ya Steve!

 

You owe me a ThighPro sample for that remark!

[MadMax]

16 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Just the right velocity, at just the right angle and somehow enough energy get absorbed by your head. I'm lucky to have never gotten concussed.

You're touching on a topic that I can easily expound upon for days... just ask @wolfe_man, @concertman1971, @Thunderheads, @Stk004, @The Short Umpire, etc., etc. etc. 

It isn't about the mask, in and of itself. It has to do with our – the wearer's – reaction to the impact. Nearly all the masks of today are engineered robustly enough to remain structurally intact when an impact hits them. That energy is transferred to the pads. Now, we can have discussions aplenty about the different qualities and capabilities of pads, but for the most part, with exception (ahem, entry-level stock Diamond pads, for best example), the pads will not "bottom out" in their compression, and propel the mask frame against the wearer's face. As I've discussed elsewhere, there are three types of protection – geometric, structural, and mechanical. As long as those protection systems are in place (as in, the impact is not striking an uncovered / unprotected spot), the wearer won't suffer a direct injury – and that includes a concussion. 

So what causes the concussion? Before I get into that, allow me to concede... there are impacts, especially to the jaw, that drive the mandible (jaw) up-and-back. There are substantially important nerve clusters surrounding the mandible hinge. If that takes a significant impact, the nerve cluster "short circuits" and overwhelms the brain with messages; the brain hits the "PAUSE" button, and the outcome is similar to the effects of a concussion. However, it needs to be pointed out, that's not the exact same thing, because the brain, in that case, is not sloshing around inside the skull and impacting the inside surface of the skull. 

That's what a concussion is. 

And what causes that, in our (baseball) context? The reaction to the impact by the wearer. Their reaction of jerking their head back and then immediately (trying to) recover(ing) by snapping their head forward again. The brain is forced back <SLAM!> and then sloshes forward <SLAM!>. For guys like you and me, who have either been umpiring for quite awhile, or who have been in baseball (especially as a catcher), or in hockey (especially as a goalie), or in other activities that there is an anticipated action happening in, such that we can "brace ourselves", prepared, and limit – or quiet – the reaction. 

My hypothesis is that today's generations, because of their limited involvement in those sort of actions, and their prolonged exposure to video games and simulations, where there isn't that physical feedback, creates a situation where an otherwise "mild" impact is so foreign to their senses, their reaction is amplified; they over-react (physically, impulsively). They recoil, jerk their head back, and <SLAM! SLOSH!>. 

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

You're touching on a topic that I can easily expound upon for days... just ask @wolfe_man, @concertman1971, @Thunderheads, @Stk004, @The Short Umpire, etc., etc. etc. 

It isn't about the mask, in and of itself. It has to do with our – the wearer's – reaction to the impact. Nearly all the masks of today are engineered robustly enough to remain structurally intact when an impact hits them. That energy is transferred to the pads. Now, we can have discussions aplenty about the different qualities and capabilities of pads, but for the most part, with exception (ahem, entry-level stock Diamond pads, for best example), the pads will not "bottom out" in their compression, and propel the mask frame against the wearer's face. As I've discussed elsewhere, there are three types of protection – geometric, structural, and mechanical. As long as those protection systems are in place (as in, the impact is not striking an uncovered / unprotected spot), the wearer won't suffer a direct injury – and that includes a concussion. 

So what causes the concussion? Before I get into that, allow me to concede... there are impacts, especially to the jaw, that drive the mandible (jaw) up-and-back. There are substantially important nerve clusters surrounding the mandible hinge. If that takes a significant impact, the nerve cluster "short circuits" and overwhelms the brain with messages; the brain hits the "PAUSE" button, and the outcome is similar to the effects of a concussion. However, it needs to be pointed out, that's not the exact same thing, because the brain, in that case, is not sloshing around inside the skull and impacting the inside surface of the skull. 

That's what a concussion is. 

And what causes that, in our (baseball) context? The reaction to the impact by the wearer. Their reaction of jerking their head back and then immediately (trying to) recover(ing) by snapping their head forward again. The brain is forced back <SLAM!> and then sloshes forward <SLAM!>. For guys like you and me, who have either been umpiring for quite awhile, or who have been in baseball (especially as a catcher), or in hockey (especially as a goalie), or in other activities that there is an anticipated action happening in, such that we can "brace ourselves", prepared, and limit – or quiet – the reaction. 

My hypothesis is that today's generations, because of their limited involvement in those sort of actions, and their prolonged exposure to video games and simulations, where there isn't that physical feedback, creates a situation where an otherwise "mild" impact is so foreign to their senses, their reaction is amplified; they over-react (physically, impulsively). They recoil, jerk their head back, and <SLAM! SLOSH!>. 

At a long ago "Desert Classic" I attended, Jim Evans demonstrated a way to check your harness tension. He bent over and demonstrated a slight, maybe 2" sag from your chin. I've always set my mask thusly. Wilson titanium with TW pads. Every hit I've taken had the mask on the floor with no impact that I could discern to my head. Rumor has it that Wison did not like MLB umps masks to come off. Thus they stay on and cause more impact.

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, jimurrayalterego said:

At a long ago "Desert Classic" I attended, Jim Evans demonstrated a way to check your harness tension. He bent over and demonstrated a slight, maybe 2" sag from your chin. I've always set my mask thusly. Wilson titanium with TW pads. Every hit I've taken had the mask on the floor with no impact that I could discern to my head. Rumor has it that Wison did not like MLB umps masks to come off. Thus they stay on and cause more impact.

I do the same. The last shot I took spun the mask on my head and I caught it before it hit the ground. 

[MadMax]

37 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Rumor has it that Wison did not like MLB umps masks to come off. Thus they stay on and cause more impact.

In a rare moment in my crusade, I don’t blame Wilson directly. In fact, by the mask being worn tight, and with MLBUs directed to do so, it likely led to a very costly settlement between a MLBU and Wilson. 

No, this has much more to do with (the) insurance underwriter(s) for MLBUs. They scrutinize everything. Are masks designed to be knocked off the head? How are they constructed? How are they tested? Are they tested so as to knocked off the head? How much force are they engineered to withstand? And, most relevant to the crux of the topic – was the mask being worn properly at the time of impact? 

Jim Evans can go and advise all the Pro, pro, and amateur umpires he wants – and his advice is wise and insightful – but he’s not the one that awards or denies the claim when it’s reviewed. And according to the assessor/underwriter, the mask must be worn, and function, “properly”. In the case of our particular Umpire, he was wearing the supplied mask properly. Yet, he still suffered a rather long-afflicting injury.

Now, while I didn’t affix blame on Wilson directly, I do hold them in seething contempt because they’ve done nothing to remedy or improve anything. 

… but that’s another talk sometime. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

19 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

At a long ago "Desert Classic" I attended, Jim Evans demonstrated a way to check your harness tension. He bent over and demonstrated a slight, maybe 2" sag from your chin. I've always set my mask thusly. Wilson titanium with TW pads. Every hit I've taken had the mask on the floor with no impact that I could discern to my head. Rumor has it that Wison did not like MLB umps masks to come off. Thus they stay on and cause more impact.

THIS...is one of the most important messages ANY umpire at ANY level of baseball could ever read.

I will never, ever forget nearly 40 years ago when I was stepping into the slot for the first time with shared equipment that we hauled out of the shed near the field and I had to adjust this mask and having no clue what I was doing tightened the straps as tight as I could. The UIC who was training all of us saw me doing this and asked me what I was doing. I explained I was tightening the mask "...so it would fit right". He then proceeded to give me the same talk that Jim Evans gave @jimurrayalterego and that is how I have always worn my mask.

If you have ever watched auto racing or have seen highlights, you can recall that when there are crashes we see all these parts and everything just flying in all directions. This is a good thing! (Although flying debris can be a serious concern for spectators) Then go back and watch footage of a crash in the 20th century. The car, which is also to say, the driver absorbs ALL of the impact. That is sub-optimal. We have heard Stan Jurga at All-Star Sports talk about "energy dispersal". @MadMax has provided excellent content here on which masks in today's market provide the best energy dispersal and for those that haven't read him, we are not just talking about Force3's spring loaded system. There are many, many ways through many elements of a mask that energy can be dispersed. Educate yourself for your own safety.

When an umpire gets hit in the face, we WANT to see the mask get torn off their face! That...is also a form of energy dispersal. If you take a direct shot to the face and your mask stays on? You may have your straps too tight. In addition to everything Jim Murray talks about, you should have this sensation that the mask is "hanging" off the bill of your cap. Now obviously, if you are moving around and your mask is flopping off your face? That is too loose. This is also why the neoprene mask harnesses are excellent. They provide the best balance between comfort, protection and keep your mask securely in place. And no, in closing, you do NOT need to spend top dollar to get energy dispersal. Consider the level of baseball that you work and that will also help guide you.

~Dawg 

[The Man in Blue]

On 2/27/2025 at 7:59 PM, wolfe_man said:

Yeah, but these are likely the last ones you'll find brand new.  I understand the price pinch though, but AS MAG pads are up there now too and they're still in production. It's totally your call, the guy I get them from supplies to MLB so these won't last long if you pass. No pressure and I get nothing out of this beyond the joy of seeing a fellow umpire find something he needs/wants.  Like I said, I bought his last black pair for $60+tax ($65), so I understand the sticker shock... but can you put a price on your head's protection?

 

Hmmm . . . If I was buying something from the manufacturer and I thought the value was there, I would pretty much agree with your closing statement, wolfe.

That's just pure profit taking, though.  Sad to see the brotherhood sullied that way.  Sure, make a few bucks for your time and troubles, but double the price and charge "tax" and shipping?  Maybe the guy is an actual retailer, thus the tax.  I would be reticent to buy anything from him knowing that's his business model.

[The Ripper]

On 2/25/2025 at 3:09 PM, VABlue said:

I recently purchased a Diamond Big League mask. I love the light weight but not a fan of the cheek pad. It's pretty thick and high, taking away a lot of my view. Any recommendations to adjust the stock pad or suggestions for different pads?

I wear a Nike titanium mask and before this year, I usually rock with the team Wendy pads. But now that they discontinued and everything I was on the market for a new pad and discovered some Rawlings pads. I knew there were similar to Nike pads, but they were just without the Nike logo. I got them in about two months ago and very impressed on how similar they are to the Nike pads, to me all that is different was the logo. I eventually took off the Rawlings red patch on the front and it looks a lot cleaner just the black pad. I think it looks better without the Nike swish too if you're not a big logos guy. Overall, I would probably recommend the Rawlings pads if you like Nike pads they are very similar in my opinion. They also are very comfortable with one of the most comfortable pads I think too. Overall, I would go for which had you feel are the most comfortable and protective.

[wolfe_man]

*

[Rock Bottom]

I'm all but certain that some high level person at All-Star (maybe Stan or maybe Brad Jurga - but I'm NOT completely sure it was either, so my apologies if I'm recalling incorrectly) said that the mask being worn loosely and spinning off has negligible difference in lessening the impact severity. I tried to quickly find the article but was unsuccessful, but I'm 95% sure that's what they said. If I find it I'll update it here. 

UPDATE: Found it: 

From Brad Jurga (allegedly) in the link below:

"The argument that when a traditional mask spins off during impact it helps lessen the impact is still uncertain. NOCSAE has done tests and has concluded that when you get hit with a traditional mask on, all the energy is transferred to the head almost immediately, even before your head would move back from the impact. With this in mind, by the time your mask would spin off, most of the impact would have already been passed to the players head."

 

https://community.hsbaseballweb.com/topic/hockey-style-mask-vs-maskskull-cap

 

Edited March 7, 2025 by Rock Bottom
updated info

[jimurrayalterego]

52 minutes ago, Rock Bottom said:

I'm all but certain that some high level person at All-Star (maybe Stan or maybe Brad Jurga - but I'm NOT completely sure it was either, so my apologies if I'm recalling incorrectly) said that the mask being worn loosely and spinning off has negligible difference in lessening the impact severity. I tried to quickly find the article but was unsuccessful, but I'm 95% sure that's what they said. If I find it I'll update it here. 

So they actually tested impact with mask tension variability and came up with negligible difference in impact? Do they have a recommended harness tension setting and a way to implement it or do they say it doesn't matter how tite or loose it is.

[Rock Bottom]

22 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

So they actually tested impact with mask tension variability and came up with negligible difference in impact? Do they have a recommended harness tension setting and a way to implement it or do they say it doesn't matter how tite or loose it is.

Found it: From Brad Jurga - see the link below:

"The argument that when a traditional mask spins off during impact it helps lessen the impact is still uncertain. NOCSAE has done tests and has concluded that when you get hit with a traditional mask on, all the energy is transferred to the head almost immediately, even before your head would move back from the impact. With this in mind, by the time your mask would spin off, most of the impact would have already been passed to the players head."

 

https://community.hsbaseballweb.com/topic/hockey-style-mask-vs-maskskull-cap

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

Perhaps I have a fundamental misunderstanding of physics  . . . but a mask spinning off has NOT already transferred all of its energy to the head.  That energy is going into the motion of the mask.  The spinning off of the mask is a direct indicator of the energy NOT being transferred, but expended in a different direction.

Admittedly, I teach English.  Social studies/government and business by trade.  Please explain to me why Newton's Laws of Motion would not apply.

[jimurrayalterego]

3 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Perhaps I have a fundamental misunderstanding of physics  . . . but a mask spinning off has NOT already transferred all of its energy to the head.  That energy is going into the motion of the mask.  The spinning off of the mask is a direct indicator of the energy NOT being transferred, but expended in a different direction.

Admittedly, I teach English.  Social studies/government and business by trade.  Please explain to me why Newton's Laws of Motion would not apply.

They said: "still uncertain", but in the context of HSM vs traditional masks where they, or NOCSAE, did not even specify harness tension. You and me are both working with anecdotal evidence and so are they but it seems they are trying to sell HSMs and you? and me are specifying a 1 to 2 inch sag with a traditional mask when you bend over to a ninety. Totally unscientific I grant you but I would have to ask @Rock Bottom what he espouses and what his experience has been with how he adjusts his mask.

[Sw-ump]

On 2/26/2025 at 6:15 PM, wolfe_man said:

What color? I’ve got a friend who had access to a couple sets. I bought the last black pair he had, but I think he had tan still.

Am interested if some r still available 

[Rock Bottom]

23 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

They said: "still uncertain", but in the context of HSM vs traditional masks where they, or NOCSAE, did not even specify harness tension. You and me are both working with anecdotal evidence and so are they but it seems they are trying to sell HSMs and you? and me are specifying a 1 to 2 inch sag with a traditional mask when you bend over to a ninety. Totally unscientific I grant you but I would have to ask @Rock Bottom what he espouses and what his experience has been with how he adjusts his mask.

I'm not espousing anything - just repeating what I read from an expert who sells both HSM and traditional. I'm guessing Brad Jurga knows more about masks and the science behind them that 99% (or more) of the people on this site, and CERTAINLY more than I do. I choose to wear the All-Star Cobalt skull-cap, and wear it tight enough it's not easily slipping off - I've taken some massive shots with it on and while the mask has come off it didn't come flying off - so I'm guessing it's a mid-tightness level.  Similar shots (as much as one can really tell) had rocked me before the Cobalt. While I agree it's mostly in the pads, especially for jaw shots, the Cobalt is a great investment in my opinion.

[jimurrayalterego]

16 minutes ago, Rock Bottom said:

I'm not espousing anything - just repeating what I read from an expert who sells both HSM and traditional. I'm guessing Brad Jurga knows more about masks and the science behind them that 99% (or more) of the people on this site, and CERTAINLY more than I do. I choose to wear the All-Star Cobalt skull-cap, and wear it tight enough it's not easily slipping off - I've taken some massive shots with it on and while the mask has come off it didn't come flying off - so I'm guessing it's a mid-tightness level.  Similar shots (as much as one can really tell) had rocked me before the Cobalt. While I agree it's mostly in the pads, especially for jaw shots, the Cobalt is a great investment in my opinion.

Is it uncertain or certain. My bold added. "The argument that when a traditional mask spins off during impact it helps lessen the impact is still uncertain. NOCSAE has done tests and has concluded that when you get hit with a traditional mask on, Harness titeness not specified, all the energy is transferred to the head almost immediately"

[The Man in Blue]

A HSM to a traditional mask to a traditional mask with a skullcap are not 1:1:1 comparisons in this discussion.  We are discussing a traditional mask and whether it should come off of the umpire under certain impacts.

Physics are physics.  There is no change in the fact that an object at rest stays at rest, that momentum is conserved, and that energy cannot be created.  So a stationary mask pushed to spinning takes energy to happen . . . thus it could not transfer all the energy and then spin.  The more of that energy that goes into the spin is less energy that is transferred to the umpire's head.  

The less energy transferred to the umpire's head, the less energy is available to then push the head and cause potential for a secondary impact: brain against skull.

If NOCSAE has concluded that physics are not physics or has discovered a new branch of physics in an alternate timeline . . . then we need to reconsider NOCSAE's standing.  We already know their testing is extremely limited in scope.

[MAUmpire]

Just another endorsement of the +Pos mesh pads as very similar to the pre-mag All-Star LUCs — got the +Pos Zro-G for the season and the pads feel indistinguishable from the All-Stars I’m used to. Hoping to try out the new Gerry Davis pads when they get released (especially if there’s a tan version) but I’ll feel comfortable with these stock pads until then. 

[DerekGDS]

On 3/14/2025 at 7:50 AM, MAUmpire said:

+Pos mesh pads as very similar to the pre-mag All-Star LUCs

I realize I am repeating myself from another thread so my apologies but... The All-Star FM25, +POS (original), Honig's (original) and GR8 Call pads all share the exact same internals and in some cases exterior textiles.

[MAUmpire]

1 hour ago, DerekGDS said:

I realize I am repeating myself from another thread so my apologies but... The All-Star FM25, +POS (original), Honig's (original) and GR8 Call pads all share the exact same internals and in some cases exterior textiles.

Many thanks @DerekGDS! This is probably a better place, I hijacked my own buy/sell thread…how do the leather fm25lmx pads fit in here? My sense (and I think supported by others’ experiences) from experience with both as a catcher is that the padding in the cloth fm25luc and fm4000 pads is more substantial than the padding in the leather pads. Is that just a trick of the exterior cover or is there a real difference?

[Velho]

On 2/28/2025 at 5:54 PM, grayhawk said:

Took another shot today with my Memory Foam pads and no ill effects

Not that you remember anyway